Does Highlands...

[Colonels_Wear_Blue]

The state champion plays one, just one, team from the other side of the bracket. The theory is that since they beat the best team from the other side of the bracket, the winning team is better than every team from the other side of the bracket. That theory is applicable to those that want to claim Highlands is the mythical Grerater Cincy champion. X beat Colerain, Moe, Elder and LaSalle, thus in theory making them the best team from the Cincy bracket (Anderson contentions noted). Highlands, being considered to be the best team out of the N. Ky bracket beat X (SK contentions noted), thus making Highlands claim that it is the mythical Greater Cincy champion as valid as CovCath's claim that it was better than all 5A teams in the west bracket in 06.

 

My only argument with you is this:

 

If a tournament designed to determine the Greater Cincinnati Champion simply had a NKY bracket and an Ohio bracket, it would be a poorly designed tournament and likely would be a very inaccurate indicator of the "champion".

 

In a proper tournament, there are seeded positions in the brackets, and thus there are games designed to be competitions between the better teams in the bracket, at least one or two of which occur before the championship. Highlands didn't beat any other "top seeded" teams in your referenced NKY bracket. As far as NKY competition goes, Highlands has played Ryle, Beechwood, Boone Cty, Dixie, Cov Cath, and Scott. Clearly, none of these teams would be seeded in a properly designed tournament over teams like Moeller, Elder, Colerain, St. X, or Lasalle. The NKY teams, for the most part, should be pitted against the big GCL schools from the get-go, and would likely be knocked out early. Thus, Highlands would have to put up a win against at least a couple of the GCL teams to be a "Greater Cincinnati Champion".

 

That's why I agreed with mcpapa: "to lay claim to the "champion of Cincinnati", way more than one Cincinnati team should be vanquished". Hasn't happened.

[CardinalsFan]

And yes, I think that Cincy fans look uninformed & arrogant when they trash KY football after they beat Highlands, Cov Cath, Ryle, etc. Although HHS & CCH have traditionally been two of the better teams throughout the state, there is plenty of other good football in KY (St. X, Male, Trinity, etc.) The fact that Cincy fans don't recognize how few students most of our schools have to compete with makes them uninformed. Trashing our schools (on a statewide level) without ever playing them makes them appear arrogant.

We do not take pride in beating the former schools you highlight (CovCath, Ryle, etc.). We in the Queen City fully expect to win those games because we have better football programs than those mentioned. It has nothing to do with the number of boys in the school in this analysis.

 

As far as the latter schools you mentioned (St. X, Male, Trinity, etc.), they stack up as follows: (5 public, 5 private/parochial)

St. Xavier (OH) - 1,171

St. Xavier (KY) - 1,115

Trinity (KY) - 1,059

Colerain - 897

Elder - 689

Moeller - 671

Male - 641

Manual - 628

Simon Kenton - 600

Ryle - 572

.

.

.

.

.

Highlands - 324

 

Beating the likes of Trinity and St. Xavier mean a lot to us Cincy folk, make no mistake about it. Both of those schools have won against the GCL and that gets them instant credibility. Now, Colerain is trying to dip in that pool as well by scheduling a home-and-home with Manual. And who knows, maybe next year we take on Simon Kenton or Ryle in week 1 at the showdown to further our KY reach. Lord knows Dale won't want anything to do with us next year...and that's a wise move on his part. :thumb:

 

So, there you go. More fun facts to debate and discuss.

 

-CardinalsFan

[Henry521]

We do not take pride in beating the former schools you highlight (CovCath, Ryle, etc.). We in the Queen City fully expect to win those games because we have better football programs than those mentioned. It has nothing to do with the number of boys in the school in this analysis.

 

As far as the latter schools you mentioned (St. X, Male, Trinity, etc.), they stack up as follows: (5 public, 5 private/parochial)

St. Xavier (OH) - 1,171

St. Xavier (KY) - 1,115

Trinity (KY) - 1,059

Colerain - 897

Elder - 689

Moeller - 671

Male - 641

Manual - 628

Simon Kenton - 600

Ryle - 572

.

.

.

.

.

Highlands - 324

 

Beating the likes of Trinity and St. Xavier mean a lot to us Cincy folk, make no mistake about it. Both of those schools have won against the GCL and that gets them instant credibility. Now, Colerain is trying to dip in that pool as well by scheduling a home-and-home with Manual. And who knows, maybe next year we take on Simon Kenton or Ryle in week 1 at the showdown to further our KY reach. Lord knows Dale won't want anything to do with us next year...and that's a wise move on his part. :thumb:

 

So, there you go. More fun facts to debate and discuss.

 

-CardinalsFan

 

 

 

Just a thought, but I have a feeling Dale will not have the same trouble filling his schedule next year as he did this. I hope the first phone calls he makes are to the Simon Kentons and the Colerains of this world.:thumb:

[leatherneck]

My only argument with you is this:

 

If a tournament designed to determine the Greater Cincinnati Champion simply had a NKY bracket and an Ohio bracket, it would be a poorly designed tournament and likely would be a very inaccurate indicator of the "champion".

 

In a proper tournament, there are seeded positions in the brackets, and thus there are games designed to be competitions between the better teams in the bracket, at least one or two of which occur before the championship. Highlands didn't beat any other "top seeded" teams in your referenced NKY bracket. As far as NKY competition goes, Highlands has played Ryle, Beechwood, Boone Cty, Dixie, Cov Cath, and Scott. Clearly, none of these teams would be seeded in a properly designed tournament over teams like Moeller, Elder, Colerain, St. X, or Lasalle. The NKY teams, for the most part, should be pitted against the big GCL schools from the get-go, and would likely be knocked out early. Thus, Highlands would have to put up a win against at least a couple of the GCL teams to be a "Greater Cincinnati Champion".

 

That's why I agreed with mcpapa: "to lay claim to the "champion of Cincinnati", way more than one Cincinnati team should be vanquished". Hasn't happened.

 

 

That's not the way the KHSAA does their championships and is not the way CovCath won the championship in 06. They didn't have to face any "top seeded" team out of the West until they played BG in the championship game. The KHSAA does not cross bracket seed. They have strict geographical brackets. West and East. In the Highlands argument, there are Cincy and N. Ky brackets. Based on the polls at least, Highlands is the best in the N. Ky bracket and X is the best in the Cincy bracket. Highlands beat X and thus is the mythical Greater Cincy champ, so the argument goes. It's that simple. If you want to contend that Highlands is not the best N. Ky team ( a contention that I disagree with strongly) or X is not the best Cincy team ( a contention that I disagree with also) you have a valid point. Are you making either contention?

 

Keep in mind that those folks making the argument are calling it "mythical" for the very reason that there was no actual playoff situation.

[CardinalsFan]

Just a thought, but I have a feeling Dale will not have the same trouble filling his schedule next year as he did this. I hope the first phone calls he makes are to the Simon Kentons and the Colerains of this world.:thumb:

We only have 1 open week next year and it's week 1 of the season. That corresponds to week 1 of the KY schedule as well. I know you guys have a week 0 now (whatever that means).

 

The matchup with Colerain would have to be at the Skyline Chili Crosstown Showdown. Would be a great matchup, no doubt, but I don't remember Highlands ever being involved in that event. Any idea why?

 

-CardinalsFan

[leatherneck]

Trinity smoked Elder 44-20 in 2002. Elder then won out and won Ohio's state title. Does that make Trinity the Ohio and Kentucky State Champs for '02?

 

I think it means that Trinity had the best team in Ky and Oh in 02.

 

They beat the best Ohio team that year, which would support the claim that they were better than all the Ohio teams that year.

 

Which is far, far different than the contention that if Trinity had to play the teams that Elder faced in the Ohio playoffs that year, Trinity would have won the Ohio state championship.

[Colonels_Wear_Blue]

That's not the way the KHSAA does their championships and is not the way CovCath won the championship in 06. They didn't have to face any "top seeded" team out of the West until they played BG in the championship game. The KHSAA does not cross bracket seed. They have strict geographical brackets. West and East. In the Highlands argument, there are Cincy and N. Ky brackets. Based on the polls at least, Highlands is the best in the N. Ky bracket and X is the best in the Cincy bracket. Highlands beat X and thus is the mythical Greater Cincy champ, so the argument goes. It's that simple. If you want to contend that Highlands is not the best N. Ky team ( a contention that I disagree with strongly) or X is not the best Cincy team ( a contention that I disagree with also) you have a valid point. Are you making either contention?

 

Keep in mind that those folks making the argument are calling it "mythical" for the very reason that there was no actual playoff situation.

 

I realize that this is all "mythical" and hypothetical, yes.

 

However, I don't quite agree with your argument about the seeding. I'm not sure about your reference to cross bracket seeding, but I do know that each district has seeding, based upon district standings, where #1 plays #4, and #2 plays #3. Thus, by the nature of the tournament's design, the top-seeded schools are going to, in all likelihood, play other top-seeded schools before the finals. I realize that there are upsets that have a bearing on outcome, but by design, the tournament will generally end up putting high seeds against other high seeds previous to the championship. In 2006, previous to the finals against Bowling Green, Cov Cath played Lex Cath and Johnson Central, both of which were #1 in their respective districts. Last year, Highlands played Johnson Central and Whitley County before the finals. Both of those schools were #1 in their districts.

 

My point was to say that I don't think a "Greater Cincinnati Champion" can be determined by basing the claim on a NKY bracket and a Cincinnati bracket. To do it up proper, there would have to be way more competition between NKY and Cincinnati schools prior to the "championship game".

[leatherneck]

We do not take pride in beating the former schools you highlight (CovCath, Ryle, etc.). We in the Queen City fully expect to win those games because we have better football programs than those mentioned. It has nothing to do with the number of boys in the school in this analysis.

 

As far as the latter schools you mentioned (St. X, Male, Trinity, etc.), they stack up as follows: (5 public, 5 private/parochial)

St. Xavier (OH) - 1,171

St. Xavier (KY) - 1,115

Trinity (KY) - 1,059

Colerain - 897

Elder - 689

Moeller - 671

Male - 641

Manual - 628

Simon Kenton - 600

Ryle - 572

.

.

.

.

.

Highlands - 324

 

Beating the likes of Trinity and St. Xavier mean a lot to us Cincy folk, make no mistake about it. Both of those schools have won against the GCL and that gets them instant credibility. Now, Colerain is trying to dip in that pool as well by scheduling a home-and-home with Manual. And who knows, maybe next year we take on Simon Kenton or Ryle in week 1 at the showdown to further our KY reach. Lord knows Dale won't want anything to do with us next year...and that's a wise move on his part. :thumb:

 

So, there you go. More fun facts to debate and discuss.

 

-CardinalsFan

 

 

You may be right about next year. I don't know and you don't either in spite of your repeated claims of definitely knowing what Dale thinks. I find it somewhat laughable and sad at the same time that you claim to know so much about how Dale thinks. But hey, if that's what it takes for you to feel good about Colerain, go for it.

 

I will acknowledge that Colerain is a very difficult team for Highlands to prepare for. They run a true option offense that we do not face any where else in Ky that I know of. Beating the option offense requires assignment football defense, assignments that we don't regularly use. So to beat Colerain, we'd have to spend a lot of time developing and working on assignments that we wouldn't use throughout the rest of the year. If Dale is ducking Colerain as you repeatedly claim and imply, I'd say that would be smart coaching by Dale for that very reason.

 

Since you've played the "I know what Dale thinks" game, I'll do it too: maybe Dale would have rather played X this year than Colerain because he figured that to be nationally ranked, he needed to beat a Cincy team that at least qualified for the Ohio playoffs (okay, that was mean. I'm sorry. :clap:)

 

As for the numbers posted, glad you finally start comparing apples to apples and using the 9, 10 and 11 grade boy numbers for the Ky schools, which makes Highlands win over X even more impressive, doesn't it.

 

Why doesn't Colerain schedule X or Trinity instead of Manual? Probably because Coach Bolden does not want any thing to do with X or Trinity next year.... and that's a wise move on his part.

 

Are we having fun yet? :banana:

[Clyde]

I find it hard to believe that "Cincinnati Champs" shirts are not being pressed as we speak for an upcoming sale in Ft Thomas.

 

Hot cakes, I say.

[leatherneck]

I realize that this is all "mythical" and hypothetical, yes.

 

However, I don't quite agree with your argument about the seeding. I'm not sure about your reference to cross bracket seeding, but I do know that each district has seeding, based upon district standings, where #1 plays #4, and #2 plays #3. Thus, by the nature of the tournament's design, the top-seeded schools are going to, in all likelihood, play other top-seeded schools before the finals. I realize that there are upsets that have a bearing on outcome, but by design, the tournament will generally end up putting high seeds against other high seeds previous to the championship. In 2006, previous to the finals against Bowling Green, Cov Cath played Lex Cath and Johnson Central, both of which were #1 in their respective districts. Last year, Highlands played Johnson Central and Whitley County before the finals. Both of those schools were #1 in their districts.

 

My point was to say that I don't think a "Greater Cincinnati Champion" can be determined by basing the claim on a NKY bracket and a Cincinnati bracket. To do it up proper, there would have to be way more competition between NKY and Cincinnati schools prior to the "championship game".[/quote]

 

 

As to the bolded, why? When CovCath beat BG for the state championship in 06 they only played one team in the playoffs from the West bracket, yet CovCath could rightly claim by winning the state championship that they were the best 5A team in the entire state. Being consistent in your reasoning, you should claim that to do the KHSAA championship proper, there would have to be way more competition between the West and East bracket teams prior to the "championship game", correct? And thus, CovCath was not necessarily the best 5A team in Ky in 06 because of the lack of East vs West competition in the playoffs that year prior to the championship game.

 

Just looking for consistent logic in your argument.

[leatherneck]

I find it hard to believe that "Cincinnati Champs" shirts are not being pressed as we speak for an upcoming sale in Ft Thomas.

 

Hot cakes, I say.

 

We'll wait until the season is over. IF we win state, don't be surprised if you see that also being mentioned on the tee shirts worn by adult Highlands fans next year.

 

This thread is too much fun and is really killing my billable hours for the day. Please stop!

[malachicrunch]

I guess Slippery Rock was #1 in 1936:lol:

[5wide]

Yes. They can claim it. It's mythical...if you have any decent support, which they do with the win over Cincy St. X, then you can claim a mythical championship.

 

If the playoffs go as expected, then I also believe Highlands can claim the mythical KY state championship in addition to the real 5A title. Highlands, Trinity and St. X are generally regarded as the best teams in the state...Trinity and X both lost to Cincy St. X. Highlands beat them.

 

So, the way I see it, if the Bluebirds take care of business, they should have one real championship and two mythical ones to tweet about.

[Voice of Reason]

A big point only being included peripherally here is the size of the schools. CF has posted enrollment numbers. The point I would make concerning HHS being champs of Cincinnati is this. Highlands won the 5A schedule. St. X. played a 6A schedule. That is where I agree with Cols._Wear_Blue. St. X. played a much more difficult "bracket" than Highlands and it isn't the same as the state playoffs because HHS played in a different bracket/class than St. X. So I ask you the question, what would Highlands record be if they played St. X's schedule? If HHS had a loss, would that change your perception?

 

Now let me shift this a little more to perhaps give CF and the naysayers something to consider. I have been a huge supporter of HHS since prior to the season, when I started a thread asking if this is the greatest HHS team ever, because I thought they were going to be that good. I do think this is arguably the greatest HHS team ever. However, I think if Highlands played St. X.'s schedule they would not be undefeated. With the injuries to key people through the season, HHS has been able to work through it because of their schedule. If HHS had to face Moeller without Collinsworth and Bardo, they would be in serious trouble. I have a hard time seeing HHS beat St. Ignatius without those two. Bottom line for me, this HHS team is great and can play with any school in Cincinnati. But I would agree with CF and others that they would not be undefeated if they played in the GCL or played St. X.'s schedule. But, guess what - they don't need to be. St. X has two losses and is #1 in Cincinnati. And the only team in the area they lost to was HHS. And that gives HHS does have a right to argue they are the best in the area. I know I went in circles a little on this but I just wanted to put a little different spin on some of the arguments above.

[Flotsam]

I find it hard to believe that "Cincinnati Champs" shirts are not being pressed as we speak for an upcoming sale in Ft Thomas.

 

Hot cakes, I say.

 

How about a "Beat St. X (again)" shirt???