It is too early to say. He still has plenty of time to become top 10 or top 5 of all time and with his talent he should be. Mentally he obviously isn't there yet and as of today he isn't top 10 material in my eyes.

Could be nerves, but still he can't be one of the greatest of all time if he is that rattled in this situation. Most of the names I mentioned were complete ice water when it came to finals performances. Not many people who saw Jordan's shot over Utah in the finals will ever forget where they were when it happened.

 

I couldn't tell you where I was.

Is LeBron the poster child of today's basketball player? The vast majority of today's players have no mid range game. They either shoot the three or take it to the rim. Pull up jumpers aren't part of the arsenal for the vast majority. And that is how I see LeBron's game. If he developed that 12-15 foot fade away like what Dirk shoots or a pull up jumper like Wade shoots, his game would take him over the top.

 

Yes. I was telling someone last night somehting similar. LBJ goes for 35+ when he's hitting jumpers. He hasn't hit jumpers since eraly in the series. I think he'll hit a lot more at home and he'll be their leading scorer for the next two games as they win the title and that will build his confidence for future deep playoff runs. HT is right though that he wouldn't even need a mid range game if he worked on a post game.

Could be nerves, but still he can't be one of the greatest of all time if he is that rattled in this situation. Most of the names I mentioned were complete ice water when it came to finals performances. Not many people who saw Jordan's shot over Utah in the finals will ever forget where they were when it happened.

 

I watched the game, but have no idea where I was. It wasn't the only buzzer beater in playoff history.

I watched the game, but have no idea where I was. It wasn't the only buzzer beater in playoff history.

 

FWIW it wasn't a buzzer beater. Stockton shot and missed a three after that shot.

As of now, no.

1. He's 25.

2. He's not selfish enough.

1. He's 25.2. He's not selfish enough.

 

 

But he looks like he's 40

The only way I can see Lebron not ending up as a top 10 all-timer is if Miami has a long run of playoff disappointments and he ends up with no rings, or maybe only one ring. I think the expectation is multiple rings, so anything less than 2, IMO, detracts from Lebron's legacy. He may end up as a top 10 player regardless, but that's the only way he doesn't in me estimation.

But he looks like he's 40

 

I think he needs to produce his birth certificate....................

Read this at work, didn't get time to post before I left so now that I am home......

 

Couple things I'd like to say after reading the thread.

 

 

1.) It is crazy to say that Lebron James is failing because he is too selfish. To me that just comes from blind hate without even taking reasonable regards to his performance on the court. There is no way you can say that after watching this playoff run that Lebron is hurting Miami because he is being way too selfish. Lebron hate comes so hard sometimes that just because people think he is an arrogant all about me tool bag that they relate that to the basketball court and say wow look at Lebron he is such a selfish tool no wonder Miami is about to go down. In realty that cannot be any further from the truth. In fact you can say he isn't selfish enough or you could say that sometimes Miami would benefit a little bit more in some situations if he did play more selfishly. Whether you want to admit it or not, Lebron is as much of a team player as there is in the league. He learned to do that in Cleveland and he elevated a lot of those guys' games by getting them involved and hitting them in the right situations. Lebron will always have double digit points and close to double digit boards and assists. That isn't counting all the things he is doing that don't show up on the stat sheet, mainly defense. Lebron still gets on the floor for loose balls, still dives in the crowd hustling for 50/50's, hes still chasing long rebounds. I mean that don't sound like a line of a selfish superstar to me?

 

Secondly, don't say Lebron doesn't make his team better. He also proved that for years in Cleveland, so please don't even go there. As far as making those around them better and elevating their games, they're not too many other superstars in the league who do it better than Lebron. The thought that he focuses so much on getting his teammates involved and keeping them going should prove both A.) he isn't that selfish, and B.) He works to make his team better.

 

 

If you want to say he is shrinking under the pressure, go ahead.

If you want to say he can never win the big game, go ahead.

If you want to say he is a jerk and a tool, go ahead.

If you want to say he is as overrated as they come, go ahead.

If you want to say he will never be considered one of the best, go ahead.

If you want to say almost anything else, please go ahead.

 

 

But don't say he is a detriment to his team because he plays too selfish, or that he doesn't make his team better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The second major thing I wanted to say was along the same lines as what Cats said. This season isn't going to make or break Lebron James and his legacy. It will until this time next year, but long term this season won't even matter. Like said, it took Jordan a while, it has taken others a while. Once you finally start to win all the bad goes away. Now if he never wins one, then you can discredit the legacy, but this season won't determine that, others will. I think he will get a couple more chances at least so you got to think they will win one. Like the Dirk argument, the talking heads had him dubbed a bust who Cuban shouldn't have built his team around. They say they should have built around Steve Nash because Dirk can't win you won. Or they said Dirk is too soft and he folds under pressure. They said a lot about Dirk, and not much of it was positive. Fast forward til now, where all'd that talk go? I mean now they are hypocritically saying the guy is one of the most clutch playoff performers of all time. It's funny how winning changes everything.

 

My point is, say what you want in the mean time, but eventually Lebron will get there and none of this will even matter. Don't ever dub a player anything until the day he retires because in sports you just never know and everything is judged on rings on your finger not stats in the record book.

The second major thing I wanted to say was along the same lines as what Cats said. This season isn't going to make or break Lebron James and his legacy. It will until this time next year, but long term this season won't even matter. Like said, it took Jordan a while, it has taken others a while. Once you finally start to win all the bad goes away. Now if he never wins one, then you can discredit the legacy, but this season won't determine that, others will. I think he will get a couple more chances at least so you got to think they will win one. Like the Dirk argument, the talking heads had him dubbed a bust who Cuban shouldn't have built his team around. They say they should have built around Steve Nash because Dirk can't win you won. Or they said Dirk is too soft and he folds under pressure. They said a lot about Dirk, and not much of it was positive. Fast forward til now, where all'd that talk go? I mean now they are hypocritically saying the guy is one of the most clutch playoff performers of all time. It's funny how winning changes everything.

 

My point is, say what you want in the mean time, but eventually Lebron will get there and none of this will even matter. Don't ever dub a player anything until the day he retires because in sports you just never know and everything is judged on rings on your finger not stats in the record book.

I agree that winning will cure everything.

 

The striking difference between LeBron and some of the all time great predecessors in-waiting to break through is how LeBron has looked in some of these bigger games which is like a deer in headlights. I think he is arguably the most talented player to ever live, but not sure his mental make-up matches all that goes along with it.

 

I am still sticking with my Miami pick and look for LeBron to bounce back, though nothing in his history supports it through now.

Good stuff.

This thread should be retitled Will LBJ be the GOAT? He is easily Top 10.

Glad I was on the right side of this thread.