Free will

[leatherneck]

Could some of our more schollarly religious types explain to me the concept of free will in Christianity? I had a conversation recently about why God doesn't just make us all make the right decisions and avoid sin. I threw out free will but would like to know more from the more knowledgable religious folks. If God is all powerful and wants us to avoid sin, why doesn't he just eliminate sinful temptations?

[CatsCatsCats]

Could some of our more schollarly religious types explain to me the concept of free will in Christianity? I had a conversation recently about why God doesn't just make us all make the right decisions and avoid sin. I threw out free will but would like to know more from the more knowledgable religious folks. If God is all powerful and wants us to avoid sin, why doesn't he just eliminate sinful temptations?

 

If you believe in such a thing then my answer would be:

 

If there was no free will, what would be the point of living. How boring would the world be if God made every decision for us? We each have the ability to do right and wrong, we have a choice.

[5wide]

Sorry leatherneck, I don't think anyone has arrived at an answer to this question.

 

CatsCatsCats touched on what some people think of the issue...the idea that God wants a group of people who chose Him. Contrast that to a bunch of "mindless robots" with no alternative if he took the choice out of the equation.

 

On the subject of free will, there's a lot of debate. One view holds that we as humans have the free will to choose or reject God. Another view states that those who follow God were chosen by Him (the elect). A brief summary of the second argument goes something like this...

 

Since humans are born with a sinful nature, they would always choose to follow the sinful path if left to their own free will. Thus, those who turn from that have been chosen by God.

 

 

But, here's a question I've always wondered about...if everything that God made in the beginning was good, how did evil/sin come to be? How did something good become evil?

[Hatz]

Could some of our more schollarly religious types explain to me the concept of free will in Christianity? I had a conversation recently about why God doesn't just make us all make the right decisions and avoid sin. I threw out free will but would like to know more from the more knowledgable religious folks. If God is all powerful and wants us to avoid sin, why doesn't he just eliminate sinful temptations?

 

Here are some sites that might help you explore the question:

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

 

There are a host of sites you can find debating the two views.

 

In a nut shell: Free Will is the Arminian belief that humanity has a choice in seeking after God and/or rejecting God.

 

The opposite of that is extreme Calvinism that believes that the elect are pre-determined by God and God elects the saved with no choice by the saved or condemned. Hyper Calvinism will tell you that everything you do and everything that happens was predetermined before the world and you can do nothing to change any part of it.

 

Most people fall inbetween parts of both and rejection of the other view in places. In other words, through the last 500 years, the two different streams have crossed so many times that parts of them meld into a new stream that's a little Free Will and a little Pre-Destination.

 

Hope that helps. :thumb:

[leatherneck]

Thanks folks for the insight. Any other amateur or professional theologians want to weigh in on my question?

[jbckentucky]

I just wandered over here from the football, baseball, basketball boards and I'm heading back fast!!. Just figured out this is where all the smart people hang out. Guess I skipped too many classes at Centre to hang with this crowd.

[Getslow]

Many years ago, a Jesuit priest named Suarez saw in Matthew 11:21-23 a centerpiece for his defense of the doctrine of free will.

 

"Woe thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes.

"But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you.

"And thou Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted up to heaven? thou shalt go down even unto hell. For if in Sodom had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in thee, perhaps it had remained unto this day."

 

The obvious question here is: could God simply have "decided" to reveal some miracle or revelation that would have made the people of those cities repent? If so, then perhaps all humans have free will, but through the action or inaction of divine providence, the series of events for certain people to repent or not repent may or may not occur, which will inevitably lead to a certain outcome, thus leaving both free will and divine providence intact.

 

He also theorized that perhaps the elect are naturally more intuned to Grace itself such that, throughout their lives, they are more capable of submitting their own will to that of God's. I don't know that either answer is any good and neither did Suarez. But there is no real "understanding" of God. Faith must come before understanding, and often in lieu of understanding. As Saint Paul told us, "we see through a glass, darkly" and I've never seen a defense of free will that I thought explained everything.

[CatsCatsCats]

Sorry leatherneck, I don't think anyone has arrived at an answer to this question.

 

CatsCatsCats touched on what some people think of the issue...the idea that God wants a group of people who chose Him. Contrast that to a bunch of "mindless robots" with no alternative if he took the choice out of the equation.

 

On the subject of free will, there's a lot of debate. One view holds that we as humans have the free will to choose or reject God. Another view states that those who follow God were chosen by Him (the elect). A brief summary of the second argument goes something like this...

 

Since humans are born with a sinful nature, they would always choose to follow the sinful path if left to their own free will. Thus, those who turn from that have been chosen by God.

 

 

But, here's a question I've always wondered about...if everything that God made in the beginning was good, how did evil/sin come to be? How did something good become evil?

 

Do people still believe that? That sounds kind old timed to me.

 

As for good and evil, aren't they possibly decided by man? To me alot of the evils are natural human instincts. How long do you think that it took for people to develop a similar set of morals.

 

For instance, when people tranistioned into civilized societies how long did it take for them to realize that stealing is wrong? Especially, when the basic human instinct is to stay alive, which would mean at all costs. Maybe this doesn't fit here, but I think it goes along with free will.

 

Do we do "good" because of human nature or in spite of it? Had people evolved differently would right and wrong be differently? To me, most of us have a very good set of morals, but I think that you have to examine why things are good or bad when looking at free will.

[Getslow]

^ You're going beyond the parameters of the question here. Certainly if God did not determine right and wrong, but only the evolution of societies, then there is nothing but free will.

[rockmom]

Leatherneck, I wish I weren't so brain-dead. This is my favorite kind of conversation!

 

Here, though, is a great explanation (IMO) of several theories

 

Catholic Encyclopedia

 

I'll do my best to get back here soon, though, and offer my personal reflections.

[CatsCatsCats]

^ You're going beyond the parameters of the question here. Certainly if God did not determine right and wrong, but only the evolution of societies, then there is nothing but free will.

 

It's beyond the parameters, but it really is the question.

[kypride]

If God created automatons who had to do the right thing every time and love him automatically then what would be the point of the whole creation? God has given us free will so we can choose to love him. That makes it all the sweeter because we have a choice.

[5wide]

Do people still believe that? That sounds kind old timed to me.

 

As for good and evil, aren't they possibly decided by man? To me alot of the evils are natural human instincts. How long do you think that it took for people to develop a similar set of morals.

 

For instance, when people tranistioned into civilized societies how long did it take for them to realize that stealing is wrong? Especially, when the basic human instinct is to stay alive, which would mean at all costs. Maybe this doesn't fit here, but I think it goes along with free will.

 

Do we do "good" because of human nature or in spite of it? Had people evolved differently would right and wrong be differently? To me, most of us have a very good set of morals, but I think that you have to examine why things are good or bad when looking at free will.

 

Apart from God and His absolute moral authority, "good" is subjective. How do you define it? What's "good" to you may not be for me?

 

So, how are they decided by man? A majority vote? Does that make it right?

 

Some civilizations believed in human sacrifice. We would view that as bad, but they wouldn't.

 

If you take the absolute right and wrong out of the equation, and leave it to us (humans) to determine that, then it all becomes subjective. We can all determine what is right and wrong/good and bad for us personally...it will undoubtedly differ with other people, but there's nothing with any authority to say who is right or wrong in their actions. It degrades into a "do what you want" life.

[ladiesbballcoach]

If moral good was totally decided by man, it would be a fluid line that would change as society changes. There would be very little, if any, constants of morality. THe example given above of human sacrifices is an example of that.

 

Blessedly, we have the Bible as an absolute Word of God that gives us a firm, unchanging moral line.

 

The problem people have with it today is that it does not change and society changes, so they want their choices to be seen as okay and then label those who stick by the Bible's moral truths, as intolerants because they won't change from the Biblical view.

[CatsCatsCats]

If moral good was totally decided by man, it would be a fluid line that would change as society changes. There would be very little, if any, constants of morality. THe example given above of human sacrifices is an example of that.

 

Blessedly, we have the Bible as an absolute Word of God that gives us a firm, unchanging moral line.

 

The problem people have with it today is that it does not change and society changes, so they want their choices to be seen as okay and then label those who stick by the Bible's moral truths, as intolerants because they won't change from the Biblical view.

 

Historically hasn't that sort of happened though? Morals have really changed through out the years. For instance, sexual "morality" has changed even in this century. It was once moral in most parts of the world to have slaves.

 

As for the second part, read the Old Testament and then read the New. Alot of so-called morals change there too. I don't see how that argument holds any substance.

 

Morals are subjective, but basic morals are determined by the majority of the people and I would say probably always have been.