Free will

[Habib]

I disagree. If, for some reason, I have the ability to see the future, the fact that I can see ahead and know what choice you will ultimately make, in no way affects you actually making that decision. It doesn't affect your free will.

 

Suppose you come to an intersection...you can choose to go left, right, or straight. Here I sit, miles away, but I know that you're going to turn left. Tell me exactly how my knowing your choice affects your free will to choose in that case. You still had the same options and could have just as easily turned right...but you didn't. And, I knew you wouldn't. However, I'm not telling you to turn left or blocking the other options at the intersection.

 

Again, you still get to choose. I just happen to know what choice you'll make. How does that affect your free will?

 

I'm not seeing it.

 

If you can see into the future and know my decisions, then my decision has already been made without my cognizance of it. Sure I will arrive at an intersection, weigh my options and select one. However, there was only one real option since it is already known which I would choose. The presence of options is irrelevant if there is only one real option to select. The rest are illusions or window dressing.

 

If at the beginning of our lives it is already known what our lives will consist of and ultimately end by, then what ability do we have to change it? None. We follow the path allotted.

 

I don't believe knowledge of the future and free will are compatible concepts.

[5wide]

If you can see into the future and know my decisions, then my decision has already been made without my cognizance of it. Sure I will arrive at an intersection, weigh my options and select one. However, there was only one real option since it is already known which I would choose. The presence of options is irrelevant if there is only one real option to select. The rest are illusions or window dressing.

 

If at the beginning of our lives it is already known what our lives will consist of and ultimately end by, then what ability do we have to change it? None. We follow the path allotted.

 

I don't believe knowledge of the future and free will are compatible concepts.

 

I see it differently. I think there's a distinction between pre-determining the outcome and just knowing what the outcome will be based on chosen actions.

 

I guess we'll just leave it at that.

Edited June 29, 2009 by 5wide

[Habib]

I see it differently. I think there's a distinction between pre-determining the outcome and just knowing what the outcome will be based on chosen actions.

 

I guess we'll just leave it at that.

 

Let me ask this. In your example of the intersection, assuming you knew which direction I would choose, and you told me before I made my decision, is it possible for me to make any other decision than the one you have foreseen? What ability do I have to shape my future if it has already occurred? And that is an open question to anyone who wants to answer.

[ladiesbballcoach]

Let me ask this. In your example of the intersection, assuming you knew which direction I would choose, and you told me before I made my decision, is it possible for me to make any other decision than the one you have foreseen? What ability do I have to shape my future if it has already occurred? And that is an open question to anyone who wants to answer.

 

How about this Habib, as I wonder if this view doesn't work.

 

You are looking at time as a linear thing as it is for you and I.

 

I propose that time has no bearing to God. It is not linear but rather every second of history, present and future is happening with God at the same moment. He can look at this moment of time and me typing this post at the same exact time that incidents like the birth of Christ, 9/11 or the discovery of fire is occurring.

 

So, while it may be a "knowing" of what we are going to do, we are seeing that as a linear thing while I propose that for God every single second occurs at the same time for Him.

 

If God is limited and constrained by time, than He is not ommipotent.

[The Professor]

If you know what choice a person will make before they make it, then their decision is already made. If a person has the ability to choose for themselves then no one can no with certainty what that person will choose. I don't believe the availability of choices for a person supports the idea of free will if their decisions are known before they are made.

That's how I see it too.

[5wide]

How about this Habib, as I wonder if this view doesn't work.

 

You are looking at time as a linear thing as it is for you and I.

 

I propose that time has no bearing to God. It is not linear but rather every second of history, present and future is happening with God at the same moment. He can look at this moment of time and me typing this post at the same exact time that incidents like the birth of Christ, 9/11 or the discovery of fire is occurring.

 

So, while it may be a "knowing" of what we are going to do, we are seeing that as a linear thing while I propose that for God every single second occurs at the same time for Him.

 

If God is limited and constrained by time, than He is not ommipotent.

 

That's similar, maybe exactly, the way I look at it.

[5wide]

Let me ask this. In your example of the intersection, assuming you knew which direction I would choose, and you told me before I made my decision, is it possible for me to make any other decision than the one you have foreseen? What ability do I have to shape my future if it has already occurred? And that is an open question to anyone who wants to answer.

 

If you "choose" Habib, then you're exercising free will, IMO. If I came down and eliminated every option except a left turn, then it would be different.

 

JMO...not saying it's right. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this topic as it relates to Christianity specifically. Probably too much time. That's one topic that doesn't seem to be clearly defined in the Bible...there is support for both predestination and free will. I'm resigned to the fact that I'll probably never know for sure, in this life at least.