Free will

[CatsCatsCats]

No on death penalty. It is a result of the action of the person.

MAJOR YES on abortion.

 

Murdering is for no reason except you want the person dead whether through killing someone or aborting the baby's life.

 

I had a feeling I would get that.

 

Any way I will get back on target.

[leatherneck]

BTW, LN I feel bad to have thread-jacked. Assuming all of your inquiries have not been answered, is there any more specifics you were wondering about to get us back on track?

 

No problem. I'm just sitting back, reading and learning different perspectives and thoughts.

[Alabama Larry]

Imagine if you are a parent or someday you will. Your kids get to make choices as they grow and if they had no free will and you made all their choices for them how happy would they be? You Love them and teach them and hope that they get it. God is our Father. Satan wants to be our Father and is to many who do not follow Jesus.

 

Man also has the freewill to accept or reject Jesus just like your kids can accept or reject their parents. Adam had a choice and God knew his choice before Adam/Eve made it. And here we are in 2009 with the chance to make the same choice as Adam/Eve, we have gone full circle.

[The Professor]

Imagine if you are a parent or someday you will. Your kids get to make choices as they grow and if they had no free will and you made all their choices for them how happy would they be? You Love them and teach them and hope that they get it. God is our Father. Satan wants to be our Father and is to many who do not follow Jesus.

 

Man also has the freewill to accept or reject Jesus just like your kids can accept or reject their parents. Adam had a choice and God knew his choice before Adam/Eve made it. And here we are in 2009 with the chance to make the same choice as Adam/Eve, we have gone full circle.

This sounds like everything is already predestined, that God knows what our Free Will choice will be before we decide it ourself. If that is the case is it really Free Will or is it God's Will what our choices are. If so, then it's really not Free Will in my opinion. It's God's Will.

 

God has the power to prevent evil from happening. Did He know Adoph Hitler would be an evil man even before he was born? Could He have prevented Hitler's evilness and saved millions of innocent lives? Why should innocents have to suffer for Hitler's choices? Where's the mercy?

 

Are we all on a giant chess board with God controlling the moves and the results?

 

I don't know the answers, but Free Will is a concept that has confused me since I was a youngster.

[5wide]

This sounds like everything is already predestined, that God knows what our Free Will choice will be before we decide it ourself. If that is the case is it really Free Will or is it God's Will what our choices are. If so, then it's really not Free Will in my opinion. It's God's Will.

 

God has the power to prevent evil from happening. Did He know Adoph Hitler would be an evil man even before he was born? Could He have prevented Hitler's evilness and saved millions of innocent lives? Why should innocents have to suffer for Hitler's choices? Where's the mercy?

 

Are we all on a giant chess board with God controlling the moves and the results?

 

I don't know the answers, but Free Will is a concept that has confused me since I was a youngster.

 

Just because God knows what you will do, doesn't mean he interferes with the decision.

[Habib]

Just because God knows what you will do, doesn't mean he interferes with the decision.

 

But, if it is already known what you will do, then you aren't making a choice. A person has no agency in that situation.

[cch5432]

In regards to the all-knowing nature of God and free will, does knowledge beforehand indicate that we have become pawns? Here is a metaphor I found another website:

 

Let’s compare to an architect who is designing a skyscraper, he studies existing building of similar design to learn what to do with his own. He draws it out, makes models, considers the ground it will be laying on, are there any reoccurring natural problems that he should consider. When the building is built the architect knows the building inside and out, every strong and likewise weak point. But say that despite all preparations he knew that because of conditions and the wear of time that the building would eventually be incapable of it’s function and become dangerous. This event in the architect’s mind is inevitable. But when the day comes and the building is condemned the architect is not the cause simply because he foresaw the event

 

Furthermore, we have the issue of chronos time and kairos time. If you aren't familiar with the topic, imagine a piece of paper with a timeline on it- chronos time is line, kairos time is the paper. We operate on chronos time, God operates in kairos time. In the same manner that the "seven days" to create the Earth could have been billions of years in chronos time, our actions don't necessarily have to happen in the same sequential order to God. (I'm no expert- these thoughts may be random, but for those with a better sense of focus can perhaps put then in some coherent form )

[Habib]

The architect analogy doesn't constitute certain knowledge of the future. An architect is making an educated guess. If the house had agency it wouldn't restrict it. The house could even differ from the architects prediction. As the case of God is presented here, he knows with certainty which decision a human will make. Those are different and free will is removed in the latter.

[tenaciousD]

I believe their is a thin line between predestination and free-will that our finite minds can't establish or comprehend. Just one of those questions I will have to ask my maker when I meet him face to face.

[5wide]

But, if it is already known what you will do, then you aren't making a choice. A person has no agency in that situation.

 

How so? Just because I know what someone will choose, doesn't mean I affect the decision in any way.

 

They still have various possible choices to make...I just happen to know which they will choose.

[Hatz]

In regards to the all-knowing nature of God and free will, does knowledge beforehand indicate that we have become pawns? Here is a metaphor I found another website:

 

Let’s compare to an architect who is designing a skyscraper, he studies existing building of similar design to learn what to do with his own. He draws it out, makes models, considers the ground it will be laying on, are there any reoccurring natural problems that he should consider. When the building is built the architect knows the building inside and out, every strong and likewise weak point. But say that despite all preparations he knew that because of conditions and the wear of time that the building would eventually be incapable of it’s function and become dangerous. This event in the architect’s mind is inevitable. But when the day comes and the building is condemned the architect is not the cause simply because he foresaw the event

 

Furthermore, we have the issue of chronos time and kairos time. If you aren't familiar with the topic, imagine a piece of paper with a timeline on it- chronos time is line, kairos time is the paper. We operate on chronos time, God operates in kairos time. In the same manner that the "seven days" to create the Earth could have been billions of years in chronos time, our actions don't necessarily have to happen in the same sequential order to God. (I'm no expert- these thoughts may be random, but for those with a better sense of focus can perhaps put then in some coherent form )

 

 

Actually Kairos is a word for time that describes "things coming together to create an event." In a more literal usage, kairos was often defined as "the pregnant time." It is when all things that must come together to create something (event, person, etc.) do so.

 

The Galatians text that describes the incarnation as Christ coming in the fullness of time uses the term kairos.

 

Chronos is the marking of time, i.e. Chronology. It is about dates and like you said, a linear construct.

 

One thing that is often forgotten is that theology states that God exists both out of our time and also in our time. "The One who is, who was and who is to come."

[cch5432]

The architect analogy doesn't constitute certain knowledge of the future. An architect is making an educated guess. If the house had agency it wouldn't restrict it. The house could even differ from the architects prediction. As the case of God is presented here, he knows with certainty which decision a human will make. Those are different and free will is removed in the latter.

Fine. 2+2=4, but just because I know that to be true does not mean that I forced it to be true.

 

I agree it is a difficult subject to comprehend. I don't know the answers.

[Alabama Larry]

You cannot question God whether he knows are motives or not, like 5 wide said we still make the decisions. Right now as I'm writing I could leave this site and in a matter of seconds go to a site where I can sin, but I make a freewill choice. We are not puppets on a string.

[Habib]

How so? Just because I know what someone will choose, doesn't mean I affect the decision in any way.

 

They still have various possible choices to make...I just happen to know which they will choose.

 

If you know what choice a person will make before they make it, then their decision is already made. If a person has the ability to choose for themselves then no one can no with certainty what that person will choose. I don't believe the availability of choices for a person supports the idea of free will if their decisions are known before they are made.

[5wide]

If you know what choice a person will make before they make it, then their decision is already made. If a person has the ability to choose for themselves then no one can no with certainty what that person will choose. I don't believe the availability of choices for a person supports the idea of free will if their decisions are known before they are made.

 

I disagree. If, for some reason, I have the ability to see the future, the fact that I can see ahead and know what choice you will ultimately make, in no way affects you actually making that decision. It doesn't affect your free will.

 

Suppose you come to an intersection...you can choose to go left, right, or straight. Here I sit, miles away, but I know that you're going to turn left. Tell me exactly how my knowing your choice affects your free will to choose in that case. You still had the same options and could have just as easily turned right...but you didn't. And, I knew you wouldn't. However, I'm not telling you to turn left or blocking the other options at the intersection.

 

Again, you still get to choose. I just happen to know what choice you'll make. How does that affect your free will?

 

I'm not seeing it.