Is Drinking Forbidden in the Bible?

[Jim Schue]

If they're tagalongs, then yes. Those are sinfully delicious. Eating 15 girl scout cookies is probably ok. Eating 15 girl scouts is not in that the sin of murder is specifically forbidden in the 10 Commandments.

 

Thin Mints, too.

[Getslow]

"Wine makes not drunkenness; but intemperance produces it."

-St. John Chrysostom in a sermon on 1 Timothy 5:23

 

I like that. Reminds me of "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."

 

Also, Martin Luther made a humorous argument about Ecclesiasticus 19:2: "Wine and women lead intelligent men astray...." He said that if "wine and women bring many a man to misery and make a fool of him; so we would need to kill all the women and pour out all the wine." There... it's the only time you'll ever see me use a saying of Martin Luther to prove my point about anything.

[Getslow]

As Father Pank would say...it's not a sin to be drunk, it's a sin to get drunk. Gluttony is a sin whether it involves alcohol, food, gambling, or just about any other activity.

 

I think it's a mistake to speak of the sin of drunkenness only in terms of its relation to gluttony. I think you have to take a much larger view of it as a violation of the much more encompassing cardinal virtue of Temperance (at least if speaking from a Catholic perspective).

 

A definition of temperance from THE Catechism: 1809 Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will's mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. The temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion: "Do not follow your inclination and strength, walking according to the desires of your heart." Temperance is often praised in the Old Testament: "Do not follow your base desires, but restrain your appetites." In the New Testament it is called "moderation" or "sobriety." We ought "to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world."

 

The only shortcoming of the Catechism is that it's often a bit simplistic (given that its topics rarely take up more than a couple paragraphs and yet still comes in at well over 1,500 pages doesn't say a lot for its brevity, relatively speaking). But the virtue of temperance comes straight to us from Plato and Aristotle and was a favorite of ancient Roman stoics as well as the Church Fathers. Their interpretation would suggest that temperance is a much larger idea, encompassing abstinence, chastity, modesty, humility, prudence, self-regulation, forgiveness and mercy.

 

I say all that to say this: the most pernicious effect of drunkenness is not the gluttony undertaken to reach that state (bad as it is) but the effects it has on human reason and the sometimes tragic consequences that occur from that impairment. Loss of reason to drunkenness can certainly lead to a great many other sins including lust, anger and sloth. Drunkenness makes us forget ourselves, and for a species created each of us individually known to our creator and in his own image, that is a terrible tragedy indeed.

[rockmom]

I would say it is in both.

 

How about the greater sin is in the intention?

[rockmom]

I think it's a mistake to speak of the sin of drunkenness only in terms of its relation to gluttony. I think you have to take a much larger view of it as a violation of the much more encompassing cardinal virtue of Temperance (at least if speaking from a Catholic perspective).

 

A definition of temperance from THE Catechism: 1809 Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will's mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. The temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion: "Do not follow your inclination and strength, walking according to the desires of your heart." Temperance is often praised in the Old Testament: "Do not follow your base desires, but restrain your appetites." In the New Testament it is called "moderation" or "sobriety." We ought "to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world."

 

The only shortcoming of the Catechism is that it's often a bit simplistic (given that its topics rarely take up more than a couple paragraphs and yet still comes in at well over 1,500 pages doesn't say a lot for its brevity, relatively speaking). But the virtue of temperance comes straight to us from Plato and Aristotle and was a favorite of ancient Roman stoics as well as the Church Fathers. Their interpretation would suggest that temperance is a much larger idea, encompassing abstinence, chastity, modesty, humility, prudence, self-regulation, forgiveness and mercy.

 

I say all that to say this: the most pernicious effect of drunkenness is not the gluttony undertaken to reach that state (bad as it is) but the effects it has on human reason and the sometimes tragic consequences that occur from that impairment. Loss of reason to drunkenness can certainly lead to a great many other sins including lust, anger and sloth. Drunkenness makes us forget ourselves, and for a species created each of us individually known to our creator and in his own image, that is a terrible tragedy indeed.

 

 

You are absolutely correct, Brother Getslow. I was trying to be simple, but I wasn't fully correct.

[mcpapa]

Page heck. Even being in the same library is a notable occasion.

 

Seems like I remember a thread about that some time back...

[Hatz]

"Wine makes not drunkenness; but intemperance produces it."

-St. John Chrysostom in a sermon on 1 Timothy 5:23

 

I like that. Reminds me of "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."

 

Also, Martin Luther made a humorous argument about Ecclesiasticus 19:2: "Wine and women lead intelligent men astray...." He said that if "wine and women bring many a man to misery and make a fool of him; so we would need to kill all the women and pour out all the wine." There... it's the only time you'll ever see me use a saying of Martin Luther to prove my point about anything.

 

My Church History Prof at Southern (Bill Leonard) once said: "If we had had Prozac in the 16th Century there would have been no Reformation. But all Luther had was warm German Beer and it wasn't enough." :lol:

[Randy Parker]

How about the greater sin is in the intention?

 

I would look at it this way...if I intend on getting drunk, but don't, that's sin (same w/ adultery, murder, etc. Jesus talked about this in the Sermon On The Mount). But if I don't intend to get drunk and do, then hurt someone in the process, that also is a sin & I would think much worse from a human fallout standpoint.

 

I'm not trying to lessen the severity of intent or motives. As I stated earlier, Jesus talked about how thinking about adultery is akin to physically committing the act. But when my unintended actions begin to negatively affect other people, then I don't think I can say that intent is worse.

[MJAlltheWay24]

I know I'm going to lose this point, but...

 

I don't understand why getting drunk is a sin. Sure if it causes me to make bad decisions or causes me to sin in some form then I understand. But if I choose to play beer pong in my apartment with a group of friends, followed by heading to the bar in cabs, shoot pool all night and just joke around, cabs home, maybe some chicken rings from White Castle on the way, and I pass out in my bed by myself. Where is there a sin? Not to mention, I wake up the next morning and head to church?

 

I do get it. The fact that being drunk, can usually lead to some bad decision making. But, what if it doesn't? It's still a sin? I'm not getting defensive, more just asking. I think its an interesting conversation.

[UKMustangFan]

I know I'm going to lose this point, but...

 

I don't understand why getting drunk is a sin. Sure if it causes me to make bad decisions or causes me to sin in some form then I understand. But if I choose to play beer pong in my apartment with a group of friends, followed by heading to the bar in cabs, shoot pool all night and just joke around, cabs home, maybe some chicken rings from White Castle on the way, and I pass out in my bed by myself. Where is there a sin? Not to mention, I wake up the next morning and head to church?

 

I do get it. The fact that being drunk, can usually lead to some bad decision making. But, what if it doesn't? It's still a sin? I'm not getting defensive, more just asking. I think its an interesting conversation.

 

I agree with this. If I get drunk (whether intentionally or not), but don't make any bad decisions, why is it a sin? I haven't caused any harm to anyone, haven't done anything I may regret or be embarrassed about, where's the sin?

[Zoot Soup]

I know I'm going to lose this point, but...

 

I don't understand why getting drunk is a sin. Sure if it causes me to make bad decisions or causes me to sin in some form then I understand. But if I choose to play beer pong in my apartment with a group of friends, followed by heading to the bar in cabs, shoot pool all night and just joke around, cabs home, maybe some chicken rings from White Castle on the way, and I pass out in my bed by myself. Where is there a sin? Not to mention, I wake up the next morning and head to church?

 

I do get it. The fact that being drunk, can usually lead to some bad decision making. But, what if it doesn't? It's still a sin? I'm not getting defensive, more just asking. I think its an interesting conversation.

 

 

The real sin here is that there are no girls in the equation.

[Getslow]

I agree with this. If I get drunk (whether intentionally or not), but don't make any bad decisions, why is it a sin? I haven't caused any harm to anyone, haven't done anything I may regret or be embarrassed about, where's the sin?

 

[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, [20] Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, [21] Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

-Galatians 5:19-21

 

The most simple answer is this: it's a sin because sacred scripture tells us that it's a sin and scripture being the eternal and inspired word of God himself, so be it. But seeing as how I never liked that particular answer much I don't necessarily expect anyone else to either. However, in not simply accepting that answer, it forces us down a path of attempted logical analysis and even conjecture about what may constitute sin. It may be that the deliberate dulling of the senses may constitute a sin unto itself. The same may be true for the slowing of the wit that comes with drunkenness. Human reason is one of God's great gifts. In the end, there is always gluttony. Just about anything done to excess will be seen as bad from a theological perspective.

[Jim Schue]

[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, [20] Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, [21] Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

-Galatians 5:19-21

 

The most simple answer is this: it's a sin because sacred scripture tells us that it's a sin and scripture being the eternal and inspired word of God himself, so be it. But seeing as how I never liked that particular answer much I don't necessarily expect anyone else to either. However, in not simply accepting that answer, it forces us down a path of attempted logical analysis and even conjecture about what may constitute sin. It may be that the deliberate dulling of the senses may constitute a sin unto itself. The same may be true for the slowing of the wit that comes with drunkenness. Human reason is one of God's great gifts. In the end, there is always gluttony. Just about anything done to excess will be seen as bad from a theological perspective.

 

I would also argue that seizing upon that one part of scripture while ignoring others is no different than the way the religious right seizes upon the homosexuality issue while ignoring Jesus' warnings about greed and doing right by poor folks, or the way the snakehandling churches seize upon the verses pertaining to serpents while soft-pedaling other parts of the Bible that don't suit their narrow view.

[Getslow]

I would also argue that seizing upon that one part of scripture while ignoring others is no different than the way the religious right seizes upon the homosexuality issue while ignoring Jesus' warnings about greed and doing right by poor folks, or the way the snakehandling churches seize upon the verses pertaining to serpents while soft-pedaling other parts of the Bible that don't suit their narrow view.

 

Not sure I understand why you quoted me there. Where have I misused scripture?

[MJAlltheWay24]

The real sin here is that there are no girls in the equation.

 

Haha...my group of friends includes females lol.

 

In all seriousness I still don't see it as a sin, even if I have the intention of getting drunk. If my drunkeness causes me to make myself look like a fool, get into a fight with someone, or anythign else, then I get it (Yes I'm not perfect, I've done those things when drunk). But if I'm just having a good time and nothing inappropriate, I just dont' see that as a sin.