A Stupid Idea?

[marvel]

No, I'm asking you to change my mind. You change people's minds with facts, evidence and examples. You've provided none of those. All you've given me is your broad generalizations of what you personally think about him. Give me quotes (in context) where he advocates terrorism, applauded 9/11 or wants America to be under the rule of Islam. In return I'll forgive your comments about my intelligence.

 

 

Zoot if you're asking me to give you actual quotes of him saying "DEATH TO AMERICA IN THE NAME OF ALLAH" then i can't help you because the Imam doesn't do that. I know he supports supplementing our Constitution by making sharia law optional. I know he refuses to condemn and label Hamas or the muslim brotherhood (which he has alleged family ties too so its not based on much.) as a terrorist group, as he states "I do not want to be placed, nor do I accept to be placed in a position of being put in a position where I am the target of one side or another." which in my eyes would be like me not condemning the KKK for its actions against black people because I prefer not to have an enemy. he speaks of peace. . If the man was truly about peace, truly about bringing religions together, why would he not condemn the very group that is ruining the reputation he would like to see muslims have , and pledging not to give up until Israel is theirs again, no matter what.

 

its not like it matters anyhow! its going to be built.

[marvel]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,598526,00.html

 

found this to be interesting...gives everyone a new outlook, at least for me.

[SKINPIG]

That is what sets this country apart from the rest ... we allow freedom of religious expression, even if it's one we don't particularly like.

 

 

Freedom of religion…What does it truly mean in this country? Does it mean anyone can worship any God in any way the religion describes? Are there any limits to how many Gods can be worshiped in this country? Does the religion have to be legit? What constitutes a legit religion in this country? Are there lines drawn in the constitution or laws that define a legit religion? Did our forefathers have some kind of guideline that defined what religions were considered to be legit and worthy of freely worshiping in this country? Did our forefathers, and does our constitution, permit an all out worship of whatever, whenever and wherever you choose? Should lines be drawn or should we respect any religion in this country? What say you?

[UKMustangFan]

Freedom of religion…What does it truly mean in this country? Does it mean anyone can worship any God in any way the religion describes? Are there any limits to how many Gods can be worshiped in this country? Does the religion have to be legit? What constitutes a legit religion in this country? Are there lines drawn in the constitution or laws that define a legit religion? Did our forefathers have some kind of guideline that defined what religions were considered to be legit and worthy of freely worshiping in this country? Did our forefathers, and does our constitution, permit an all out worship of whatever, whenever and wherever you choose? Should lines be drawn or should we respect any religion in this country? What say you?

 

Anyone can worship any god or gods they choose in any fashion, so long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of another. That is solely my opinion, of course.

[Zoot Soup]

In a 60 Minutes interview that aired on September 30, 2001, Rauf said that the 9/11 attacks were part of a larger Islamic “reaction against the U.S. government politically, where we [the U.S.] espouse principles of democracy and human rights, and [yet] where we ally ourselves with oppressive regimes in many of these countries.” "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened," Rauf elaborated, "but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened." Rauf further stated that “because we [Americans] have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world,” it could be said that “n fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.”

 

what does that sound like???

 

Sounds like truth to me.

[Zoot Soup]

Zoot if you're asking me to give you actual quotes of him saying "DEATH TO AMERICA IN THE NAME OF ALLAH" then i can't help you because the Imam doesn't do that. I know he supports supplementing our Constitution by making sharia law optional. I know he refuses to condemn and label Hamas or the muslim brotherhood (which he has alleged family ties too so its not based on much.) as a terrorist group, as he states "I do not want to be placed, nor do I accept to be placed in a position of being put in a position where I am the target of one side or another." which in my eyes would be like me not condemning the KKK for its actions against black people because I prefer not to have an enemy. he speaks of peace. . If the man was truly about peace, truly about bringing religions together, why would he not condemn the very group that is ruining the reputation he would like to see muslims have , and pledging not to give up until Israel is theirs again, no matter what.

 

its not like it matters anyhow! its going to be built.

 

The Hamas issue is a little deeper than you want it to be. Israel and the US wanted free and fair elections in Gaza and Hamas was the democratically elected party. Elected just like we wanted someone to be. Only we don't like Hamas and label them a terrorist group and refuse to recognize them as legitimate, even though they were elected in the way in which we wanted. I also believe Rauf refused to say anything about the legitimacy of Hamas, which is understanable from a man in his position. He didn't condemn them, but he didn't say there were a legitimate entity, either. If you listen to his views on Islam and general, you have to believe he doesn't support the actions of Hamas.

[Zoot Soup]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,598526,00.html

 

found this to be interesting...gives everyone a new outlook, at least for me.

 

That's a good article, but that's an outlook myself and others have been saying since the first posts of this thread.

[Zoot Soup]

Freedom of religion…What does it truly mean in this country? Does it mean anyone can worship any God in any way the religion describes? Are there any limits to how many Gods can be worshiped in this country? Does the religion have to be legit? What constitutes a legit religion in this country? Are there lines drawn in the constitution or laws that define a legit religion? Did our forefathers have some kind of guideline that defined what religions were considered to be legit and worthy of freely worshiping in this country? Did our forefathers, and does our constitution, permit an all out worship of whatever, whenever and wherever you choose? Should lines be drawn or should we respect any religion in this country? What say you?

 

I draw my line when people identify with the Jedi faith.

[mcpapa]

Freedom of religion…What does it truly mean in this country? Does it mean anyone can worship any God in any way the religion describes? Are there any limits to how many Gods can be worshiped in this country? Does the religion have to be legit? What constitutes a legit religion in this country? Are there lines drawn in the constitution or laws that define a legit religion? Did our forefathers have some kind of guideline that defined what religions were considered to be legit and worthy of freely worshiping in this country? Did our forefathers, and does our constitution, permit an all out worship of whatever, whenever and wherever you choose? Should lines be drawn or should we respect any religion in this country? What say you?

 

Here's a decent overview:

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/amend_1.htm

[True blue (and gold)]

In a 60 Minutes interview that aired on September 30, 2001, Rauf said that the 9/11 attacks were part of a larger Islamic “reaction against the U.S. government politically, where we [the U.S.] espouse principles of democracy and human rights, and [yet] where we ally ourselves with oppressive regimes in many of these countries.” "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened," Rauf elaborated, "but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened." Rauf further stated that “because we [Americans] have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world,” it could be said that “n fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.”

 

what does that sound like???

 

I would say that is sounds like you are incapable of looking beyond the elementary value of his words (at best) greatly exaggerating or lying (at worst). Compare the underlined statements in your own two posts.

 

Well then by all means support him. I can see no matter what I'm not going to change you're mind. So i'm not going out of my way to prove that a man who is acting like a man of peace isn't any better than the men who attacked us on 9/11. After all, according to him, we had it coming and its our own fault.

 

It also sounds like you ignore facts that don't support "your" opinion, as you did with this post below, but I will post it again (though I did directly quote you in the first posting of it). This is a baptist minister, for heaven's sake!

 

I guess that this baptist preacher is naive and disgusting.

 

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/c_welton_gaddy/2010/07/great_irony_in_outcry_over_ground_zero_mosque.html

Additional, NYC mayor Michael Bloomburg (who is jewish and an independent) is in support of the building of the mosque. Is he also "naive and disgusting"?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/nyregion/04mosque.html

As New York City removed the final hurdle for a controversial mosque near ground zero, Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg forcefully defended the project on Tuesday as a symbol of America’s religious tolerance and sought to reframe a fiery national debate over the project.

“To cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists — and we should not stand for that,” the mayor said.

 

Grappling with one of the more delicate aspects of the debate, Mr. Bloomberg said that the families of Sept. 11 victims — some of whom have vocally opposed the project — should welcome it.

 

“The attack was an act of war — and our first responders defended not only our city but also our country and our Constitution,” he said, becoming slightly choked up at one point in his speech, which he delivered on Governors Island. “We do not honor their lives by denying the very constitutional rights they died protecting. We honor their lives by defending those rights — and the freedoms the terrorists attacked.”

 

With the Statue of Liberty as his backdrop, the mayor pleaded with New Yorkers to reject suspicions about the planned 13-story complex, to be located two blocks north of the World Trade Center site, saying that “we would betray our values if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else.”

 

[True blue (and gold)]

Here's a decent overview:

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/amend_1.htm

 

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[mcpapa]

Freedom of religion…What does it truly mean in this country? Does it mean anyone can worship any God in any way the religion describes? Are there any limits to how many Gods can be worshiped in this country? Does the religion have to be legit? What constitutes a legit religion in this country? Are there lines drawn in the constitution or laws that define a legit religion? Did our forefathers have some kind of guideline that defined what religions were considered to be legit and worthy of freely worshiping in this country? Did our forefathers, and does our constitution, permit an all out worship of whatever, whenever and wherever you choose? Should lines be drawn or should we respect any religion in this country? What say you?

 

I say you can worship a bundle of sticks and mud if you so desire.

[Habib]

I say you can worship a bundle of sticks and mud if you so desire.

 

:thumb: It reminds me of something Thomas Jefferson said: "it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God."

 

Opposing this development is nothing short of religious bigotry and fundamentally at odds with the founding principles of this country. It has merely become a ruse for politicians who think they can further there own cause by stirring up the angst of whichever Americans buy into it, or are at least unaware that their are not only Muslims living in New York city but have built their own mosques within "eyesight" of the World Trade Center campus prior to the attacks. Newt Gingrich has attempted to sound intelligent about the matter, claiming that the name is intended as a slap in the face of Christians, but the Cordoba Initiative has been around for quite some time. Their mission, ironically, is to improve relations between Islam and the West.

[Bluegrasscard]

All of America should be outraged by the attempt to place this mosque or any radically new structure for any reason in this area. I will not even debate the reasons of the backers of this mosque (who have yet to reveal who is funding it).

 

But the block where the construction will occur is still Ground Zero. I have walked along the area. Your heart skips just walking around 'the pit' and the surrounding area. As you walk by St. Pauls Church and know that it was a place of sanctuary that almost left untouched that day. If you go down the block to the Path train station and see the words "World Trade Center" you may look up to see the huge towers, but it will be in vain. You may go down to catch the train go across the river into NJ as I have done many times and see the signs everywhere - World Trade Center or just "World Trade" as the cabbies call it. And you know this ground is as sacred as "the pit". As you pull out of World Trade to go across the Hudson you go through broken concrete and strewn re-barb - today. It is an erie feeling.

 

To dramatically change the area in that vicinity, without strong cause is to rob not just NY but all of America of something we should keep protected. People ran for the lives that day. They ran right past the Burlington Coat Factory as a storm of debris came down that block. There was a landing gear to a plane above them as they ran by. The landing gear of of plane that carried so many to their final resting place. Many of them will retrace their steps, many will want to remember, many will want to forget - but can't. Are we to tell them it is ok to retrace to your race for your life and have to walk by a honorarium to the cause that created the disaster? I do not see how that can be.

 

Opposing this development is more that just. The motive for this project are strongly suspect but dramatically changing the Ground Zero area should not be allowed for almost any reason.

 

Is the location of this mosque near or just 'in the shadow of ground zero'. No - the block was hit with aircraft debris from the impact. It is part of the landscape of that day.

 

 

This would be like building new buildings all around the parking lot at Kent State, where 4 memorials mark that tragic day. Even if you kept the parking lot you could not visualize what happened if that happened. A mosque was not part of the landscape on September 11th where people, by the thousands had to run and flee from this nations worst ever attack.

[Michael Corleone]

It is just a terrible idea. Quite honestly I find it sickening that it is even being debated.

 

I would like to know why they want to build the Mosque there? Of all places.