Trinity & St. X - What's the Point?

[Canescat]

"It's just the numbers" is such a lame and lazy argument that it's not even worth responding to anymore. The commitment level of everyone involved in the T and X programs is the difference. Kids start preparing for T and X in 3rd grade. If people would simply give the kids and coaches the credit they deserve and just accept that T and X have it figured out, emulate the programs, learn from the programs and implement the plan for success at their programs, more teams would start to compete.

Just throwing up your hands and blaming "numbers" will never be enough. Just wishing for "more numbers" will not solve the problem if your program doesn't know what to do with the numbers or how to create a powerhouse program with the numbers. Look deeper into these programs for the formula and then go copy it at your school, work the plan and see the results.

[00Rocket28]

It boils down to the haves and have nots. When you have 2000 male students to make a team with, odds are you will get your fair share of athletes.

[westsider]

I think you are right on with most of what you say, but Bob Beatty and Mike Glaser wouldn't win any rings at 90% of the public schools in this state. Don't ever think that the coaching at Trinity and X is that far ahead of the rest of the state. It is ahead, but not as far as you would like to believe.

 

Don't believe me? Look at Trinity's brilliant OC and how well he did once he stepped outside the hallowed walls of the Rocks. No slight against him, just pointing out the fact that T and X have factors and setups that make coaches look good. Again, T and X's coaches do a phenomonal job, but I think a lot of public coaches are right on par with them. It's a wee bit different out in the rest of the world.

Excellent post ...

[westsider]

It boils down to the haves and have nots. When you have 2000 male students to make a team with, odds are you will get your fair share of athletes.

They don't have 2,000 ... it's more like 1,400-1,500. Still, it's a significant advantage.

[Skunk]

"It's just the numbers" is such a lame and lazy argument that it's not even worth responding to anymore. The commitment level of everyone involved in the T and X programs is the difference. Kids start preparing for T and X in 3rd grade. If people would simply give the kids and coaches the credit they deserve and just accept that T and X have it figured out, emulate the programs, learn from the programs and implement the plan for success at their programs, more teams would start to compete.

Just throwing up your hands and blaming "numbers" will never be enough. Just wishing for "more numbers" will not solve the problem if your program doesn't know what to do with the numbers or how to create a powerhouse program with the numbers. Look deeper into these programs for the formula and then go copy it at your school, work the plan and see the results.

 

It's not fair to not think that numbers is not in the equation. Thre are plenty of other schools that are "programming" the kids at an early age, so that's not the it. Other programs that do the same thing aren't winning every year with no other competition. And I don't believe that they "work" harder than everyone else.

 

Formula: Results = Numbers + Effort

 

It's a lot easier to get effort when you can plug in numbers...

[00Rocket28]

They don't have 2,000 ... it's more like 1,400-1,500. Still, it's a significant advantage.

 

When it's that many does it matter:lol:

[strike-3]

In Cincinnati, the situation is similar except there are 4 big Catholic schools (Elder, St. X, Moeller and LaSalle). In Cleveland you have St. Ignatius, St. Edward and several others. These schools are probably just a hair better than Louisville Trinity and St. X (I know, I know ...Trinity beat Cinti. St. X this year. CSX was 4-6 this year and T beat them 17-6...think about that). I don't think there has been complaining in Ohio because there always seems to be a public school rival that is equal or better. In Cincinnati in the past it was Princeton vs Moeller. More recently it has been Colerain. There are other very good public school teams across the state Ohio that are very competitive with the private schools. In three of the big school title games in this decade, there wasn't even a private school in the title game.

 

So maybe the problem isn't T and X. Maybe the problem is the public schools need to step it up. Male has been there. There really is no reason why there shouldn't be public schools in the state and especially in Louisville, Lexington and N. Ky competing with T and X. Public schools need to get their act together, get the coaches and the facilities and the support necessary to compete. It can be done.

 

 

The only problem that I see with your arguement in comparing Kentucky to the situation in Ohio is that the public schools you listed are equal in enrollment to most of the private schools that you listed. Trinity and St. X both enjoy a considerable enrollment advantage as compared with the rest of the schools in 6A. The schools at the bottom of 6A will have approximatley half the boys that attend T or X. I'm an Apollo fan. Apollo has about 1400 students, I'll assume about half are boys. Call me crazy but I believe that if they could pick between an additional 700 boys to field their team than they would be considerablly better than they are. Might not make to competitive with T or X but surely then would be much better.

 

In Ohio's large class a private school has won 13 of the last 20 championships. The 6 public schools that have won a title are all about equal to the private schools that have won championships during that same period with the exception of St. X and St. Iggy which are by far larger than the others. Therefore it shouldn't be surprising that these two schools have won 11 of those 20 titles.

 

Honestly I don't see much difference between Ohio and KY public schools. Are they really doing that much better? Ohio publics have only won 6 of the last 20 biggest class titles. Even the lowely publics in Kentucky have managed to win 5 of 20. I think that the only difference in preception is that there is a much larger population in Ohio with many more schools and many metropolitan areas. It doesn't come down to the same 2 schools almost every year, and therefore doesn't appear to be the problem that many feel it is in Kentucky.

[Canescat]

If its "just numbers + effort" then T and X should win in every sport every year. Obviously this has not happened and shows that there is much more to it than "just numbers". A program is about generating numbers no doubt, but a program is much more than numbers. It continues to be a big mistake for all other programs to simply wish for more numbers to save the day. Until programs copy EVERYTHING T and X do they will be on the outside looking in.

[Getslow]

The numbers argument is PLAYED OUT. I know this isn't the case in some places, but in Lexington and NKY, if you want the numbers to match up, then stop building new schools and add on. Trinity did it. Don't expect any Trinity poster to acknowledge an advantage when, in fact, it is a self-imposed disadvantage. If building new schools is a law, then change the law. Trinity puts 1,400 students onto a city block. I don't know of any public school in Louisville that has its entire campus in an area as small as Trinity. And even among private schools, only Assumption is in that boat.

 

Don't give me the numbers argument when the solution is right in front of us. I am getting tired of hearing it.

[westsider]

The numbers argument is PLAYED OUT. I know this isn't the case in some places, but in Lexington and NKY, if you want the numbers to match up, then stop building new schools and add on.

I suspect the vast majority of this state doesn't want behemoth schools with 2,500-3,000 enrollment. Many view schools that size as too big.

Trinity puts 1,400 students onto a city block. I don't know of any public school in Louisville that has its entire campus in an area as small as Trinity.

Public schools can do it, too ... the problem is that 700 of those students are female.

Don't give me the numbers argument when the solution is right in front of us. I am getting tired of hearing it.

Like it or not, the "numbers argument" is a very relevant point ...

[ColonelMike]

A couple of thoughts, a couple of which I'm copying from my post about teams repeating as champs next year...

 

Forget the names "Trinity" and "St. X" for a moment...forget all team names...and you'll still have this:

 

There will always be a select few teams every year that are the only ones to have a real chance. And the "elite" teams - by definition - aren't going to quickly change. By definition, an elite team takes an extraordinary combination of circumstances, talent, luck, good coaching, good facilities, strong fan base, etc. to come together. Building an elite program takes time and effort, but once established, it will last longer than the "flash in the pan" program because it builds on its own success. The Tradition will develop a momentum all its own...the program can still crash, but it weathers bumps better than "non-elites".

 

In some states, those elite programs are private schools; but in others, they are public schools. In each case, you'll find that many - if not all - of the above factors will be present in those successful programs.

 

Those programs, however, should become the TARGET for the rest. Can we be envious? Yes. Scornful? No. When Trinity plays Cincy St. X, they carry the banner of every KY high school... ditto when Highlands or CovCath plays a Cincy school, or Ashland plays Ironton, etc., etc.

 

I remember setting up a chess tournament for my Boy Scout troop when I was in junior high. We had a lot of kids in the troop who were good chess players...most notably, a guy named Pat who was on the chess team at Butler HS. He was head and shoulders better than the rest of us, even though me and a couple of other guys played on junior high chess teams. I was torn about including Pat in the tournament. It seemed to many in the troop to be pointless to bother with the tournament with Pat in it; it was an exercise in futility and simply a matter of marking time until awarding him the trophy. I was lobbied by several to exclude Pat from the tournament, but then my father pointed out to me that running away from Pat would never make any of the rest of us champions. The winner of the tournament would be a false champion; incapable of claiming to be the best in the troop. (We let Pat in...)

 

Understand - I have no affiliation with X or T. Nor do the schools I support even compete in 6A (they compete in 3A and 5A).

 

We simply need to see the rest of the state pull themselves up to the challenge of being able to compete with the current gorillas. That's the challenge - and the only thing that will affect the domination of the few. It can be done...remember when Boyle County was a team you scheduled for Homecoming? And Oldham County - a frequent top 10 team from the mid 80s to 2000 - came out of a four year downhill spiral this year with a tremendous 9-3 season and a top 10 ranking. The Colonels appear headed in the right direction again under Matt Brown. In their respective classes are potential "elites" that are on the brink of challenging the Beechwoods, Bell Counties, Highlands, and X & T - Lexington Christian? Raceland? Fern Creek? Ballard? Manual? Scott County? Simon Kenton? Johnson Central? Oldham County? North Oldham? These all look like places with some or all of the ingredients in place to challenge for their place at the table.

 

The "bigs" have thrown down the gauntlet - repeatedly - it's up to the rest of us to respond.

[westsider]

If its "just numbers + effort" then T and X should win in every sport every year. Obviously this has not happened and shows that there is much more to it than "just numbers".

They do dominate in several sports ... golf and tennis, especially, and sometimes soccer.

 

Trinity and St. Xavier emphasize football ... that, combined with the numbers advantage, contributes to their dominance.

[strike-3]

Not true!

 

In Ohio, Upper Arlington, Cleveland Glenville, Canton McKinley, Cincinnati Colerain have all won big school titles with about half the enrollment of the Cincinnati St. X's and Cleveland St. I's.

 

I am sure the same can be said for other states. I will say that in no other state is the dominance that the two Louisville schools have over others in big school football.

 

Not ture either!

 

According to the OHSAA

 

St. X 1173

St. Iggy 1086

Colerain 897

Upper A 723

Glenville 756

Canton Mc 686

 

Only Canton McKinley even comes close to half the enrollment. Also are you sure Cleveland Glenville has won the Division 1 title. I couldn't find the year.

[ColonelMike]

They do dominate in several sports ... golf and tennis, especially, and sometimes soccer.

 

Trinity and St. Xavier emphasize football ... that, combined with the numbers advantage, contributes to their dominance.

 

Trinity has also had recent appearances in the Sweet 16, both are annually among the top-ranked baseball teams in the state, and the St. X cross-country program is always one of the top 10 in the state (and Trinity's is pretty darn good)

[Getslow]

Like it or not, the "numbers argument" is a very relevant point ...

 

So what would you have us do? Admit that we were wrong to continue the centuries-old practice of separating men's and women's educations? Admit that we're at fault for wanting as many young men who wanted to attend our school? Get down on our knees and beg for mercy for being good at football, giving out corporal punishment to students and reading the New American Bible during school hours? What sort of penance is appropriate? In other words: what do you want from us?