They don't have 2,000 ... it's more like 1,400-1,500. Still, it's a significant advantage.

 

Dunbar and other publics have over 1,000 boys. At the upper end of 6A the pure ENROLLMENT numbers are NOT significant. However, in the middle and lower part of 6A enrollments do reduce to almost half of the top end 6A.

 

6A does have widest range of enrollment numbers compared to the other classes due to the few number of 'mega-schools'. There is not nearly the enrollment difference from the highest to the lowest in the other classes.

 

THE problem for the most part is that the percentage of PARTICIPATION vs. enrollment is considerably lower at most schools vs. X and T.

 

To have senior dominated teams year after year (like X and T and other strong schools) a school with 800 to 1000 boys needs less than 1 out of 10 boys participating actively in football. That would give you 40 - 50 seniors each year. Yet many 6A schools do not have this level of participation. Way too many 6A schools have rosters of less than 50 players for varsity. They also often have key players playing both ways - a failed approach in most cases.

 

So quit focusing only on enrollment and focus on PARTICIPATION as well. When you peel back the factors in participation is when you find the factors of fan base, enthusiasm, tradition, and yes, COACHING. These drive young people to the sport.

So what would you have us do? Admit that we were wrong to continue the centuries-old practice of separating men's and women's educations? Admit that we're at fault for wanting as many young men who wanted to attend our school? Get down on our knees and beg for mercy for being good at football, giving out corporal punishment to students and reading the New American Bible during school hours? What sort of penance is appropriate? In other words: what do you want from us?

Quit taking it personally. I'm not asking for your penance ... I'm simply pointing out the advantages that Trinity and St. Xavier enjoy.

Dunbar and other publics have over 1,000 boys. At the upper end of 6A the pure ENROLLMENT numbers are NOT significant. However, in the middle and lower part of 6A enrollments do reduce to almost half of the top end 6A.

 

6A does have widest range of enrollment numbers compared to the other classes due to the few number of 'mega-schools'. There is not nearly the enrollment difference from the highest to the lowest in the other classes.

 

THE problem for the most part is that the percentage of PARTICIPATION vs. enrollment is considerably lower at most schools vs. X and T.

 

To have senior dominated teams year after year (like X and T and other strong schools) a school with 800 to 1000 boys needs less than 1 out of 10 boys participating actively in football. That would give you 40 - 50 seniors each year. Yet many 6A schools do not have this level of participation. Way too many 6A schools have rosters of less than 50 players for varsity. They also often have key players playing both ways - a failed approach in most cases.

 

So quit focusing only on enrollment and focus on PARTICIPATION as well. When you peel back the factors in participation is when you find the factors of fan base, enthusiasm, tradition, and yes, COACHING. These drive young people to the sport.

I think there is another aspect to this ... private school vs. public school.

 

The private schools are likely to have more participation for several reasons, many of them demographic in nature.

Quit taking it personally. I'm not asking for your penance ... I'm simply pointing out the advantages that Trinity and St. Xavier enjoy.

 

Which has been done ad nauseum in this forum. If we're going to get anywhere, then we need to determine the appropriate course for the future. It's been discussed in the Public/Private forum. Is there a solution beyond a split or are we at an impasse here?

The private schools are likely to have more participation for several reasons, many of them demographic in nature.

 

I am not sure what demographic advantage privates have that would increase participation.

Which has been done ad nauseum in this forum. If we're going to get anywhere, then we need to determine the appropriate course for the future. It's been discussed in the Public/Private forum. Is there a solution beyond a split or are we at an impasse here?

I'd lean more toward impasse.

 

I've posted this before and I will do so again. If we want parity in 6A, take Trinity and St. Xavier and divide each of them in half. Then we'll have all the parity we could ever want.

I am not sure what demographic advantage privates have that would increase participation.

In my opinion, the simple fact that Trinity and St. Xavier students come from families that are willing to fork over the tuition money is an indicator that those students will be more involved in extracurricular activities, athletics among them.

 

Every big public school has a sort of disaffected segment of students who don't participate in much of anything.

It's not fair to not think that numbers is not in the equation. Thre are plenty of other schools that are "programming" the kids at an early age, so that's not the it. Other programs that do the same thing aren't winning every year with no other competition. And I don't believe that they "work" harder than everyone else.

Canescat is right on target with his comments. Highlands is the perfect example.They do things right--just like T & X--and it's allowed them to compete and win against schools with far higher populations. It really isn't just a numbers game.

ScooterBob...who do you pull for? I've had boys go to Atherton/Male and I went to Iroquois, if you question my kids/myself or any public kid's desire then you don't know football, and thats a......well I really don't want to say, but you don't see what I've seen in these kids eyes.

 

Another point about "Numbers". SK, how many kids live in their county.

 

Do kids from surrounding counties go there? Is it an all boy school?

 

Boone County?

 

Ryle?

 

I always told myself I'd leave this fact alone until someone posted about the publics need to step it up or try harder.

When it's that many does it matter:lol:

Maybe so, maybe not ... but if you're going to make the argument, you better get the numbers right.

If its "just numbers + effort" then T and X should win in every sport every year. Obviously this has not happened and shows that there is much more to it than "just numbers". A program is about generating numbers no doubt, but a program is much more than numbers. It continues to be a big mistake for all other programs to simply wish for more numbers to save the day. Until programs copy EVERYTHING T and X do they will be on the outside looking in.

This is it. It's not about the number of athletes that come to your school. It's about the ability of your school to draw the best athletes and to do the most with what you have.

If numbers have no effect then why do we have classes at all? Let's have one like basketball. Maybe numbers do mean something.

St.X and Trinity have unfair advantages, coaching, facilities, blah blah blah....

 

Ty Scroggins anyone?

 

Here it is, plain and simple. I may be rehashing other ideas, but so be it..

 

How many public schools start in early january training themselves at a ridiculous level, in order to be ready for practice, which starts in july? Not many I assume.

 

Im not saying public schools dont work hard. I can tell you of the few coaches I know who are currently coaching at public schools, that none of them can get thier kids to go at it as hard that early in the year, as the kids at T and X do. Some play other sports, some do other activities, some have jobs etc..

 

I cant speak for X, but Im almost certain that once January rolls around, its time to prepare for the season...weights, conditioning etc. I honestly believe that its at that point, where T and X begin to seperate themselves. Again, not downing the public schools, just merely stating an opinion.

 

We can sit here and say T and X have more boys to choose from, but lets be honest. How many D1 players to T and X annually send to college? I'd be willing to be that the top two public schools send more. Heck, in the early 2000's, Male was sending EVERYBODY to major colleges, yet they only beat T 1 out of 3.

 

The argument about T and X's coaching staff having success because they are there is absurd. I would put my money on the coaching staff being the BIGGEST reason why T and X are successful. Remember folks, in the previous 10 years before Beatty arrived at Trinity, they won 2 titles.

 

Public schools need to stop making excuses. Public schools must improve from top to bottom, from coaching to facilities, from administrations to teachers. T and X weren't always dominant, and in fact, it used to be the public schools who dominated in everything. What took place was T and X refusing to be second best to anyone anymore. Now its public schools who have to refuse to be second best.

 

That is of course, my opinion:thumb:

In my opinion, the simple fact that Trinity and St. Xavier students come from families that are willing to fork over the tuition money is an indicator that those students will be more involved in extracurricular activities, athletics among them.

 

Every big public school has a sort of disaffected segment of students who don't participate in much of anything.

 

Gotcha. I agree with that.

 

I've posted this before and I will do so again. If we want parity in 6A, take Trinity and St. Xavier and divide each of them in half. Then we'll have all the parity we could ever want.

 

But this one I don't. The second teams from these schools will handle most of the state schools. You 'split' these squads and give them all the opportunity to all make the semis and it will be a very green last two weeks of the 6A football year.

 

Many Kentucky HS football changes have tried to address the X and T and domination of the highest class of football by Jefferson County schools over the years. Examples:

 

1. Going from 3 classes to 4 Classes in 1975. Why - Louisville schools (lead by X, T, F and M) dominated 3A.

2. Going from 4 classes to 6. See above.

3. Establishing a format that named a 'Jefferson County Champion' and a 'State Champion'. This format gave the title of 'Champion' to the 2 top schools and created a metro, statewide rivaly game each year. (BTW, I think this was good format and addressed a lot of the issues here.)

4. Somewhat stupidly - going away from the format in #3 because - and I remember a state school coach say this clearly - "that format guarantees Jefferson County a spot in the finals and that is just not right". Well, now you have a format that gives you X and T in the finals every other year. Instead of them knocking each over off in the semis or quarters. BTW...KHSAA records clearly reflect this County Champion vs. State Champion approach in their footnotes in the list of football champions on their website.

 

X and T (and F and M) have always been the powers. And there is no sigle factor that drives that.

Edited December 16, 200817 yr by Bluegrasscard
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I think there is another aspect to this ... private school vs. public school.

 

The private schools are likely to have more participation for several reasons, many of them demographic in nature.

 

The demographic argument is a double-edged sword, west. The rich kids seem, on average, to have less fast-twitch muscles.