Is it time for another American flag?

[capt278]

There's not a single NFL stadium that suspends concession/beer sales during the singing of the National Anthem. Nobody ever made ANY stink about that...but folks silently kneel during the Anthem, good God, you just took it WAY too far! That is disrespectful to the flag, to the military, to dead veterans, and to the country!!

 

Could be because the one that started the kneeling stated he will not show respect for the flag.

[Run To State]

Cowboys just took a knee. I can't imagine the conflicting emotions across the nation :lol2:

 

That was a dishonest assessment. They took a knee before the anthem not during. Regardless, I think I'm done with the NFL until the political stuff stops. I may just go ahead and write off the whole season either way. Thankfully, NHL hockey starts in 8 days.

[Hellcats]

That was a dishonest assessment. They took a knee before the anthem not during. Regardless, I think I'm done with the NFL until the political stuff stops. I may just go ahead and write off the whole season either way. Thankfully, NHL hockey starts in 8 days.

 

Dishonest?

I just said they took a knee.

 

I imagine it was to show support for the rights of those who choose to kneel during the anthem as a protest.

 

But I may be wrong in my interpretation.

 

Still funny. Heads would have absolutely exploded if it happened during the anthem.

[Run To State]

Dishonest?

I just said they took a knee.

 

I imagine it was to show support for the rights of those who choose to kneel during the anthem as a protest.

 

But I may be wrong in my interpretation.

 

Still funny. Heads would have absolutely exploded if it happened during the anthem.

 

The way you posted it sounded like they took a knee during the anthem. As for what the Cowboys and the Cardinals did I pretty much had no problem with it. It was a respectful way to show unity and their support. As a Cowboy fan I think that if they would have knelt during the anthem it might have seemed like a slap in the face to the families and friends of those officers that were killed last year while protecting members of Black Lives Matter. So yeah, they may have went off about it.

[UKMustangFan]

If something needs fixed, lets say police brutality toward anyone whether it be Black, White, Asian, Indian etc, taking a knee will not fix it. Sitting down with someone or a group of people who has the power to change the laws or change the way things work will fix it. Anything else will only divide further.

 

@oldgrappler makes good points.

 

This is not about police brutality. This is about Trump.

 

I mostly agree with everything you posted, but the players taking a knee was never intended to fix the issue. It was intended to bring the issue to the table and draw awareness to it. I'd say that's been accomplished at this point and it's time to do as you said, and have those with power to enact change come to the table.

 

As for this past Sunday's protests, 100% in agreement. Those were a direct result of the POTUS taking unwarranted (IMO) shots at the entire NFL.

[mcpapa]

I mostly agree with everything you posted, but the players taking a knee was never intended to fix the issue. It was intended to bring the issue to the table and draw awareness to it. I'd say that's been accomplished at this point and it's time to do as you said, and have those with power to enact change come to the table.

 

As for this past Sunday's protests, 100% in agreement. Those were a direct result of the POTUS taking unwarranted (IMO) shots at the entire NFL.

 

Agree with everything you've said here.

[HammerTime]

Cowboys took a knee before the anthem, not during.

At the Colts, Browns game all boos stopped when the anthem started. No booing during the anthem.

@WesleyLowery

 

if kneeling *before the anthem* also gets you boo'ed, doesn't that suggest that opposition to kneeling was never about the anthem?

 

Hummm....

[oldgrappler]

There's not a single NFL stadium that suspends concession/beer sales during the singing of the National Anthem. Nobody ever made ANY stink about that...but folks silently kneel during the Anthem, good God, you just took it WAY too far! That is disrespectful to the flag, to the military, to dead veterans, and to the country!!

 

Could be because the one that started the kneeling stated he will not show respect for the flag.

 

@capt278's analysis is right, IMO. The act of protest was intended to be disrespectful to the flag and the country as a whole. That's why the beer sales during the anthem and the fact that some slobs (fans) can't seem to muster the strength to stand or stop talking are not the same as those players, or owners who purposefully take a knee during the anthem. The latter is an intentional act designed to draw attention to their lack of respect for the nation. They are taking an action that says, "I am purposely disrespecting this country because of the lack of justice that I perceive." (I am leaving the debate as to whether they have a good reason to do so out of my post.) I am just stating why the two acts are not morally equal--one done with no particular point or malice other than that that person thinks whatever he or she is doing at the moment is too important to be interrupted, while the other person is drawing particular attention to his/her actions to make a public statement that at the moment they do not respect this country and its law of order (I know they think they are justified in that).

 

@WesleyLowery

 

if kneeling *before the anthem* also gets you boo'ed, doesn't that suggest that opposition to kneeling was never about the anthem?

 

Hummm....

 

No. Everything is done in a context. This whole thing began as a purposeful demonstration during the national anthem. The divisiveness is already present and the act of kneeling before the anthem is seen as supporting the original act and all of those since. Given the context, people are voicing their opposition. Don't forget that Kap also wore socks with LEOs depicted as pigs. Some people believe there is a direct correlation (perhaps causation) between the narrative that the police everywhere are out to get people of color and the targeted shooting of police in Dallas during a BLM demonstration. This was just one of the targeted shootings of police officers that occurred after the media started to tie together separate incidences of police shootings of African-Americans. Kneeling to support the BLM message (though the shooting was not a part of the planned BLM demonstration) is seen by many as an insult to those who died that day and their families and to police officers who put their life on the line every day. This is another reason why these player protests continue to be divisive.

[B-Ball-fan]

@capt278's analysis is right, IMO. The act of protest was intended to be disrespectful to the flag and the country as a whole. That's why the beer sales during the anthem and the fact that some slobs (fans) can't seem to muster the strength to stand or stop talking are not the same as those players, or owners who purposefully take a knee during the anthem. The latter is an intentional act designed to draw attention to their lack of respect for the nation. They are taking an action that says, "I am purposely disrespecting this country because of the lack of justice that I perceive." (I am leaving the debate as to whether they have a good reason to do so out of my post.) I am just stating why the two acts are not morally equal--one done with no particular point or malice other than that that person thinks whatever he or she is doing at the moment is too important to be interrupted, while the other person is drawing particular attention to his/her actions to make a public statement that at the moment they do not respect this country and its law of order (I know they think they are justified in that).

 

 

 

No. Everything is done in a context. This whole thing began as a purposeful demonstration during the national anthem. The divisiveness is already present and the act of kneeling before the anthem is seen as supporting the original act and all of those since. Given the context, people are voicing their opposition. Don't forget that Kap also wore socks with LEOs depicted as pigs. Some people believe there is a direct correlation (perhaps causation) between the narrative that the police everywhere are out to get people of color and the targeted shooting of police in Dallas during a BLM demonstration. This was just one of the targeted shootings of police officers that occurred after the media started to tie together separate incidences of police shootings of African-Americans. Kneeling to support the BLM message (though the shooting was not a part of the planned BLM demonstration) is seen by many as an insult to those who died that day and their families and to police officers who put their life on the line every day. This is another reason why these player protests continue to be divisive.

 

 

I'm guessing that by now throughout this whole discussion, here and within the media, you have heard many plead for folks to understand that this was not the intent, so do you think that it's possible that they're telling the truth, and if not what might be the motivation behind everyone lying about it?

[oldgrappler]

This is where the divide lies. My point is, they chose a disrespectful way to protest and now are trying to say they didn't intend to be disrespectful. Not everyone is buying that. If they were not, then they would apologize and not do it again because many folks definitely view it as disrespect of the principles of this country. Imagine you are at a high school football game back before Kap first did this and during the national anthem all the team stood at attention with hand on heart, except one player who decided to kneel. His kneeling had no overarching political intent. He would be reprimanded for being disrespectful because the act of kneeling during the anthem, when you should be standing is, by definition, disrespectful.

 

Furthermore, is saying the reason you knelt is because you don't have pride in your country disrespectful? Many people think so. This is what Kap said. He also wore socks depicting LEOs as pigs. I think he meant to be disrespectful on both accounts. Saying otherwise after the fact is called back-tracking when one realizes he may have been wrong or is bringing unwanted criticism upon himself.

 

It's disrespectful to the people who fought and died for the freedoms represented by that flag. Freedoms that everyone in this country participates in without regard to color. Alejandro Villanueva for the Pittsburgh Steelers knows what the flag stands for and the price some people have paid for its freedoms. So he stood, with hand over heart, to show respect for his country and the people he fought alongside of.

 

Players say they are not meaning to show disrespect but that is how their actions are interpreted because their actions are disrespectful. You can bring attention to your cause without doing an action that demonstrates disrespect for the flag. Kneeling, when you are supposed to stand, is an act of disrespect, no matter how justified you feel your cause is. To kneel for your own national anthem and then stand for the playing of another country's anthem goes one step further, it's unpatriotic.

 

The action says one thing, the players' words say another. Ruth Bader Ginsburg agrees with those who view the action as disrespectful:

 

In a wide-ranging interview with Yahoo News’s Katie Couric, Ginsburg said she thought that while Kaepernick’s protest was legal, it was “a terrible thing to do”.

 

“What do I think? I think it’s really dumb of them,” Ginsburg said. “Would I arrest them for doing it? No. I think it’s dumb and disrespectful. I would have the same answer if you asked me about flag burning. I think it’s a terrible thing to do, but I wouldn’t lock a person up for doing it. I would point out how ridiculous it seems to me to do such an act.”

 

Ginsburg went to some lengths to say that the protest was legal but that she disagreed with Kaepernick and other athletes’ stance.

 

“If they want to be stupid, there’s no law that should be preventive. If they want to be arrogant, there’s no law that prevents them from that. What I would do is strongly take issue with the point of view that they are expressing when they do that.”

 

For the rest of Ginsburg's comments see: Ruth Bader Ginsburg: Colin Kaepernick's protest is 'dumb and disrespectful' | Sport | The Guardian

 

Another person who sees the actions as disrespectful and doesn't fit the "Trump-supporter" stereotype is Jim Brown.

 

Jim Brown characterized Kap's actions as "desecrating the flag and the national anthem."

 

So, I guess I don't agree that Kap's actions and those who followed him are anything other than disrespectful. You can criticize your country's policies, and you can point out injustice (as I do for the voiceless in our culture), but you can do it in a way that does not show disrespect for your country, as Jim Brown alluded to as "intelligent" ways to make your point and actually address the problem.

 

For instance, @B-Ball-fan, as you are trying to initiate in your other thread. I had a response to you there that suggests a way forward. But it is difficult and I am not sure that it will be without controversy.

[B-Ball-fan]

This is where the divide lies. My point is, they chose a disrespectful way to protest and now are trying to say they didn't intend to be disrespectful. Not everyone is buying that. If they were not, then they would apologize and not do it again because many folks definitely view it as disrespect of the principles of this country. Imagine you are at a high school football game back before Kap first did this and during the national anthem all the team stood at attention with hand on heart, except one player who decided to kneel. His kneeling had no overarching political intent. He would be reprimanded for being disrespectful because the act of kneeling during the anthem, when you should be standing is, by definition, disrespectful.

 

Furthermore, is saying the reason you knelt is because you don't have pride in your country disrespectful? Many people think so. This is what Kap said. He also wore socks depicting LEOs as pigs. I think he meant to be disrespectful on both accounts. Saying otherwise after the fact is called back-tracking when one realizes he may have been wrong or is bringing unwanted criticism upon himself.

 

It's disrespectful to the people who fought and died for the freedoms represented by that flag. Freedoms that everyone in this country participates in without regard to color. Alejandro Villanueva for the Pittsburgh Steelers knows what the flag stands for and the price some people have paid for its freedoms. So he stood, with hand over heart, to show respect for his country and the people he fought alongside of.

 

Players say they are not meaning to show disrespect but that is how their actions are interpreted because their actions are disrespectful. You can bring attention to your cause without doing an action that demonstrates disrespect for the flag. Kneeling, when you are supposed to stand, is an act of disrespect, no matter how justified you feel your cause is. To kneel for your own national anthem and then stand for the playing of another country's anthem goes one step further, it's unpatriotic.

 

The action says one thing, the players' words say another. Ruth Bader Ginsburg agrees with those who view the action as disrespectful:

 

In a wide-ranging interview with Yahoo News’s Katie Couric, Ginsburg said she thought that while Kaepernick’s protest was legal, it was “a terrible thing to do”.

 

“What do I think? I think it’s really dumb of them,” Ginsburg said. “Would I arrest them for doing it? No. I think it’s dumb and disrespectful. I would have the same answer if you asked me about flag burning. I think it’s a terrible thing to do, but I wouldn’t lock a person up for doing it. I would point out how ridiculous it seems to me to do such an act.”

 

Ginsburg went to some lengths to say that the protest was legal but that she disagreed with Kaepernick and other athletes’ stance.

 

“If they want to be stupid, there’s no law that should be preventive. If they want to be arrogant, there’s no law that prevents them from that. What I would do is strongly take issue with the point of view that they are expressing when they do that.”

 

For the rest of Ginsburg's comments see: Ruth Bader Ginsburg: Colin Kaepernick's protest is 'dumb and disrespectful' | Sport | The Guardian

 

Another person who sees the actions as disrespectful and doesn't fit the "Trump-supporter" stereotype is Jim Brown.

 

Jim Brown characterized Kap's actions as "desecrating the flag and the national anthem."

 

So, I guess I don't agree that Kap's actions and those who followed him are anything other than disrespectful. You can criticize your country's policies, and you can point out injustice (as I do for the voiceless in our culture), but you can do it in a way that does not show disrespect for your country, as Jim Brown alluded to as "intelligent" ways to make your point and actually address the problem.

 

For instance, @B-Ball-fan, as you are trying to initiate in your other thread. I had a response to you there that suggests a way forward. But it is difficult and I am not sure that it will be without controversy.

 

You have said a lot here, and you're definitely in the running to take over my position as the most long winded :lol2:, yet with all due respect while I view you to be someone who takes great effort in being logical, and though you have made many worthy to be pondered points, your answer is not coming across as such, and especially with how you came out of the gate with your response.

 

You have every right to view the act of taking the knee as being disrespectful, but just because you and many feel this way does not mean that those who are doing it are doing so with a disrespectful intent.

 

You might not agree with their approach, but to continue to paint the narrative as such shows that you're simply not listening to their reasons why they're not intending for it to be disrespectful.

 

Sure, they realize that others object to it and find it to be disrespectful, yet it has been said countless times that no disrespect has been intended, and that they were hoping that it would be a silent yet effective way to make a statement regarding social injustices with the hopes that this will stir up serious discussion in search of real solutions.

 

The intent is to say that they do in fact love and respect this country, and would like to see freedom and fairness be awarded to everyone, and while numerous other attempts to be heard have fallen on deaf ears, this silent approach is speaking louder than words with the intended goal to be for the betterment of all, and not to be a spit in the eye or disrespect to the flag or this country.

 

Sure it's a respectful and honorable jester to stand with hand over heart during the National Anthem, yet IMO it pretty much equates to an empty false act if one is not willing to recognize that justice is not fairly served to everyone in this country, and that the flag represents all of us, and not just some of us.

 

You and many others here, because you view it to be disrespectful, continue to paint that those doing it have disrespect as their intent, and it perplexes me how some can't see how one doesn't fit with the other.

 

You may not agree with, or even completely understand or agree with their stance, yet if we're ever going to be able to move forward with this, it's first and foremost necessary that the reality of this supersedes impressions and misconceptions.

 

If people are truly concerned they will begin to listen, and stop misrepresenting the reality of just what this is all about.

 

Villanueva takes blame for standing by himself for anthem

[mcpapa]

If people are truly concerned they will begin to listen, and stop misrepresenting the reality of just what this is all about.

 

Correct.

 

And good luck with that.

[oldgrappler]

You have said a lot here, and you're definitely in the running to take over my position as the most long winded :lol2:, yet with all due respect while I view you to be someone who takes great effort in being logical, and though you have made many worthy to be pondered points, your answer is not coming across as such, and especially with how you came out of the gate with your response.

 

You have every right to view the act of taking the knee as being disrespectful, but just because you and many feel this way does not mean that those who are doing it are doing so with a disrespectful intent.

 

You might not agree with their approach, but to continue to paint the narrative as such shows that you're simply not listening to their reasons why they're not intending for it to be disrespectful.

 

Sure, they realize that others object to it and find it to be disrespectful, yet it has been said countless times that no disrespect has been intended, and that they were hoping that it would be a silent yet effective way to make a statement regarding social injustices with the hopes that this will stir up serious discussion in search of real solutions.

 

The intent is to say that they do in fact love and respect this country, and would like to see freedom and fairness be awarded to everyone, and while numerous other attempts to be heard have fallen on deaf ears, this silent approach is speaking louder than words with the intended goal to be for the betterment of all, and not to be a spit in the eye or disrespect to the flag or this country.

 

Sure it's a respectful and honorable jester to stand with hand over heart during the National Anthem, yet IMO it pretty much equates to an empty false act if one is not willing to recognize that justice is not fairly served to everyone in this country, and that the flag represents all of us, and not just some of us.

 

You and many others here, because you view it to be disrespectful, continue to paint that those doing it have disrespect as their intent, and it perplexes me how some can't see how one doesn't fit with the other.

 

You may not agree with, or even completely understand or agree with their stance, yet if we're ever going to be able to move forward with this, it's first and foremost necessary that the reality of this supersedes impressions and misconceptions.

 

If people are truly concerned they will begin to listen, and stop misrepresenting the reality of just what this is all about.

 

Villanueva takes blame for standing by himself for anthem

 

My post was an attempt to explain why people are angry at the kneeling protest. Not all of what I said represents my views, though much of it does. Some of it is that no matter what their intent was, it reflected poorly on our country and that is not acceptable to many. If they want to be heard they should choose a way that does not close people's ears and minds to the message. The kneeling is a distraction and is subtracting from their message. This is why I mention Jim Brown's choice of words that they should choose an "intellegent" way to address this issue. If you are just being more divisive, your message isn't getting across. The success of this protest is mixed. Kap got attention but his real concern is being lost in the divisiveness that his method caused.

 

I agree with your point and I am willing listen to the reason people, like Kap and others, feel it necessary to protest. I also think that since their kneeling is so offensive to people they don't mean to offend, they should stop with this manner of protest. Their point has been made. Let's get back to honoring our country and its flag during the national anthem. In the same way that the protesters want others to look beyond the act that is perceived as disrespectful, the protesters should try to understand why others are so offended by it rather than assuming those individuals are white supremacists, rednecks, Trump supporters, etc. who don't care and won't ever understand. It really is personal to many people who are police officers and from military families and are just plain patriotic. It isn't that these people just won't listen. Okay. The call to stop misrepresenting what this is about goes both ways. I am willing to listen as long as false assumptions are not allowed to stand unchallenged.

 

I do not agree that it is an empty gesture to honor the flag even though you have deep concerns over justice issues in our country. You can still recognize that while not perfect, this has been the most just country in existence. Its principles, enumerated in its founding documents, lead to justice as we struggle with their implementation. There isn't anything better in existence or that has produced such just results in so short of a time. We do have a ways to go, but that does not take away from the fact that our system is under girded by principles that ensure freedom and justice for everyone. I don't think it has been improved upon anywhere.

 

Now to the heart of the matter. Is Kapaernick right in his assessment about the treatment of African-American males at the hands of the police? He feels this is right. But do the facts back it up? The media presented a tight narrative from incident to incident but when you look at the details as they become known, the story isn't so uniform. Kap's contention has not been proved yet: "there are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder." Is he correct in his view that black males are unjustly shot at rates higher than other races and therefore we can conclude the cause is police bias and racism toward black people?

 

The DOJ report on what happened at Ferguson, Missouri flatly denies this. I mention Ferguson because this was the incident that touched off the massive protests. There was a report that Michael Brown held up his hands in surrender and said, "Don't shoot" but was shot and killed any way by the police officer. This became the rallying cry for the BLM protests and a way to represent police brutality and the murder of innocent African-American males. But guess what! It didn't happen that way. There were over 100 witnesses plus physical evidence and DNA that contradicts this narrative. Michael Brown punched the police officer in the face while he was seated in his cruiser and Brown tried to grab the officer's gun resulting in the first shot being fired. He refused to obey orders walking away then turned and came towards the police officer and many witnesses said he reached his hand down to his waist band. He was shot and killed as a result of his actions.

 

That is what the DOJ found in its investigation. But that doesn't seem to matter to the media or those who want to perpetuate the narrative that police in the U.S. shoot innocent African-American males at a higher rate than they do other races. The narrative has been drawn from incident to incident, always with the assumption that the police are guilty of shooting an innocent person. Are there questionable police shootings? You bet there are and they should be investigated and where there is wrong-doing on the part of the police that officer should be punished and where appropriate charged and tried for a crime. But there are other incidents where the person had a gun in his hands and clearly showed it around. The police received a call and came to the scene expecting confrontation with a gunman and when the gunman refused to obey orders and continued to act in threatening ways, he got shot. This is a justified shooting. But it doesn't get reported that way. The outcry began before the facts were known and the media has its narrative so they string it together. That makes for good ratings but unfortunatley, it is dangerous. Now you are telling a whole population that they are targets of the police and this is what they expect. It is not surprising then, that at a BLM protest in Dallas a madman opened fire targeting police officers, killing 5 officers, injuring nine officers, and injuring two civilians. The reason for the shooting was that he was angry at police for shooting black men and he expressed a desire to kill white people, especially white police officers.

 

Is this man that angry if the unrelated incidents of police shooting African-American men are not tied together and reported as if they all were shot unjustly? Maybe. Maybe he is just crazy. But many people who are sane sympathized with the shooter. Why? because Michael Brown was shot when his hands were up as he tried to surrender. Never mind that this didn't happen. However, thousands (millions) of people think it did happen. This is a false narrative woven together and reported incessantly by the media. It is dangerous to perpetuate this lie. Yet it continues today. Colin Kaepernick believes this and that is why he knelt in protest and why, as he said, he has no pride in his country. But is it true? Does anyone care?

 

And because of this, there are many that think this protest during the national anthem is misguided and disrespectful. Some think it is a slap in the face of police officers who put their life on the line every day to protect the very community (among others) that they are being accused of targeting.

 

These are the issues that I see as making a conversation about the NFL protests and the issue Kap intended to raise difficult. It is fraught with emotion and misinformation. I have tried to convey some of that to you while dealing with facts. If someone expresses themselves honestly then they open themselves to an accusation of racism (wrongly). I know there are uncomfortable stories I need to hear about how African-Americans have been discriminated against. I could give you an example of institutional racism and how it played out in the life of a person I know (happened long ago). I have raised some hard questions concerning race issues in other threads that never received a response. The conversation is too difficult because it challenges our own deeply embedded assumptions and personal biases. This stuff raised by Kap is just the tip of the iceberg. But let me say that I am skeptical of the claim that the police are killing innocent African-American men because of racial bias or at a rate greater than other races that indicates discrimination is involved. I have not seen evidence for it.

 

Sorry, I think I dethroned you, @B-Ball-fan, as the king of long-winded responses.

[jericho]

 

As for this past Sunday's protests, 100% in agreement. Those were a direct result of the POTUS taking unwarranted (IMO) shots at the entire NFL.

 

Just like he takes all the unwarranted shots from the NFL, NBA, and Hollywood.

 

Seems some can't take their own medicine.

[Science Friction]

Just like he takes all the unwarranted shots from the NFL, NBA, and Hollywood.

 

Seems some can't take their own medicine.

 

Our leaders shouldn't be dishing out bad medicine(or any medicine) to sports figures or leagues.