Our leaders shouldn't be dishing out bad medicine(or any medicine) to sports figures.

 

Your right.

Just like our leaders should wait on actual police reports before commenting and fanning hate flames.

When our leader defend the integrity of the Flag and those who serve, then excuse me for not feeling sorry for those who object.

I didn't realize NFL was full of such pitiful hurt feelings.

My post was an attempt to explain why people are angry at the kneeling protest. Not all of what I said represents my views, though much of it does. Some of it is that no matter what their intent was, it reflected poorly on our country and that is not acceptable to many. If they want to be heard they should choose a way that does not close people's ears and minds to the message. The kneeling is a distraction and is subtracting from their message. This is why I mention Jim Brown's choice of words that they should choose an "intellegent" way to address this issue. If you are just being more divisive, your message isn't getting across. The success of this protest is mixed. Kap got attention but his real concern is being lost in the divisiveness that his method caused.

 

I agree with your point and I am willing listen to the reason people, like Kap and others, feel it necessary to protest. I also think that since their kneeling is so offensive to people they don't mean to offend, they should stop with this manner of protest. Their point has been made. Let's get back to honoring our country and its flag during the national anthem. In the same way that the protesters want others to look beyond the act that is perceived as disrespectful, the protesters should try to understand why others are so offended by it rather than assuming those individuals are white supremacists, rednecks, Trump supporters, etc. who don't care and won't ever understand. It really is personal to many people who are police officers and from military families and are just plain patriotic. It isn't that these people just won't listen. Okay. The call to stop misrepresenting what this is about goes both ways. I am willing to listen as long as false assumptions are not allowed to stand unchallenged.

 

I do not agree that it is an empty gesture to honor the flag even though you have deep concerns over justice issues in our country. You can still recognize that while not perfect, this has been the most just country in existence. Its principles, enumerated in its founding documents, lead to justice as we struggle with their implementation. There isn't anything better in existence or that has produced such just results in so short of a time. We do have a ways to go, but that does not take away from the fact that our system is under girded by principles that ensure freedom and justice for everyone. I don't think it has been improved upon anywhere.

 

Now to the heart of the matter. Is Kapaernick right in his assessment about the treatment of African-American males at the hands of the police? He feels this is right. But do the facts back it up? The media presented a tight narrative from incident to incident but when you look at the details as they become known, the story isn't so uniform. Kap's contention has not been proved yet: "there are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder." Is he correct in his view that black males are unjustly shot at rates higher than other races and therefore we can conclude the cause is police bias and racism toward black people?

 

The DOJ report on what happened at Ferguson, Missouri flatly denies this. I mention Ferguson because this was the incident that touched off the massive protests. There was a report that Michael Brown held up his hands in surrender and said, "Don't shoot" but was shot and killed any way by the police officer. This became the rallying cry for the BLM protests and a way to represent police brutality and the murder of innocent African-American males. But guess what! It didn't happen that way. There were over 100 witnesses plus physical evidence and DNA that contradicts this narrative. Michael Brown punched the police officer in the face while he was seated in his cruiser and Brown tried to grab the officer's gun resulting in the first shot being fired. He refused to obey orders walking away then turned and came towards the police officer and many witnesses said he reached his hand down to his waist band. He was shot and killed as a result of his actions.

 

That is what the DOJ found in its investigation. But that doesn't seem to matter to the media or those who want to perpetuate the narrative that police in the U.S. shoot innocent African-American males at a higher rate than they do other races. The narrative has been drawn from incident to incident, always with the assumption that the police are guilty of shooting an innocent person. Are there questionable police shootings? You bet there are and they should be investigated and where there is wrong-doing on the part of the police that officer should be punished and where appropriate charged and tried for a crime. But there are other incidents where the person had a gun in his hands and clearly showed it around. The police received a call and came to the scene expecting confrontation with a gunman and when the gunman refused to obey orders and continued to act in threatening ways, he got shot. This is a justified shooting. But it doesn't get reported that way. The outcry began before the facts were known and the media has its narrative so they string it together. That makes for good ratings but unfortunatley, it is dangerous. Now you are telling a whole population that they are targets of the police and this is what they expect. It is not surprising then, that at a BLM protest in Dallas a madman opened fire targeting police officers, killing 5 officers, injuring nine officers, and injuring two civilians. The reason for the shooting was that he was angry at police for shooting black men and he expressed a desire to kill white people, especially white police officers.

 

Is this man that angry if the unrelated incidents of police shooting African-American men are not tied together and reported as if they all were shot unjustly? Maybe. Maybe he is just crazy. But many people who are sane sympathized with the shooter. Why? because Michael Brown was shot when his hands were up as he tried to surrender. Never mind that this didn't happen. However, thousands (millions) of people think it did happen. This is a false narrative woven together and reported incessantly by the media. It is dangerous to perpetuate this lie. Yet it continues today. Colin Kaepernick believes this and that is why he knelt in protest and why, as he said, he has no pride in his country. But is it true? Does anyone care?

 

And because of this, there are many that think this protest during the national anthem is misguided and disrespectful. Some think it is a slap in the face of police officers who put their life on the line every day to protect the very community (among others) that they are being accused of targeting.

 

These are the issues that I see as making a conversation about the NFL protests and the issue Kap intended to raise difficult. It is fraught with emotion and misinformation. I have tried to convey some of that to you while dealing with facts. If someone expresses themselves honestly then they open themselves to an accusation of racism (wrongly). I know there are uncomfortable stories I need to hear about how African-Americans have been discriminated against. I could give you an example of institutional racism and how it played out in the life of a person I know (happened long ago). I have raised some hard questions concerning race issues in other threads that never received a response. The conversation is too difficult because it challenges our own deeply embedded assumptions and personal biases. This stuff raised by Kap is just the tip of the iceberg. But let me say that I am skeptical of the claim that the police are killing innocent African-American men because of racial bias or at a rate greater than other races that indicates discrimination is involved. I have not seen evidence for it.

 

Sorry, I think I dethroned you, @B-Ball-fan, as the king of long-winded responses.

 

I completely respect your thorough assessment, and think that you have raised numerous legitimate points and concerns. What you have laid out here is a great example of why both sides could benefit greatly from hearing each other out.

 

Regarding kneeling, right or wrong, and depending on who is doing the judging of it, I agree that it's time to move past this as the way to demonstrate, and while it has indeed spawned discussion, like you have said, with so many being offended by it, it's damaging the message that they're trying to send, and is in many ways back firing as being an effective approach. This form of protest needs to no longer be the main focus when the reasons go much deeper than that.

 

I would hope that we could all agree that disrespect was not the intent, have them apologize to those who they have offended, have those offended offer that they do understand the intent even while being offended, and have everyone once and for all understand it for what it is, and no matter how it is viewed, allow it to be the catalyst to open fruitful discussion with an honest passionate attempt to find real and fair solutions.

 

With that said, I will respectfully concede and bow to you as you rightfully take over the throne as the newly appointed reigning king of long-winded responses. You have more than earned it, and never let it be said that I don't fully recognize when I have been outdone as I graciously step down, turning over this most honorable position of power to its rightful occupant... your royal highness @oldgrappler

Could be because the one that started the kneeling stated he will not show respect for the flag.

 

Colin Kaepernick did NOT say he will not show respect in the flag. He said he will not show pride in the flag. There is a very, VERY discernible difference there. It is very possible to not show pride in something yet still show it respect.

 

Kaepernick isn't talking, hollering, screaming or yelling, nor holding up signs while the National Anthem is being played and the flag is being honored. He is quietly taking a knee rather than standing.

 

On the other hand, I'm not sure how respectful (or prideful) the NFL fans are who have been out drinking and tailgating in the parking lots since 9am as they stand and shuffle around drunkenly in the beer lines waiting for another drink during the National Anthem as they whine about how they need to get their beer so they can go take a leak...instead of standing silently at attention with their hat off and their hand over their heart.

 

I challenge you to show me where any President, politician, NFL fan or NFL owner who has said anything about that in public platform.

When our leader defend the integrity of the Flag and those who serve, then excuse me for not feeling sorry for those who object.

I didn't realize NFL was full of such pitiful hurt feelings.

 

Come on...he defends those who serve?

 

We're talking about a guy who accepted four student deferments so he DIDN'T have to serve in Vietnam, who is on record as attacking Senator McCain who was a Vietnam POW for 5-1/2 for not being a war hero because he was captured. He's also made claims that McCain has done very little for veterans...and that was after McCain had (among other things) been co-sponsor of a bill that overhauled the VA in 2014.

 

He doesn't defend anything but his own agendas.

Colin Kaepernick did NOT say he will not show respect in the flag. He said he will not show pride in the flag. There is a very, VERY discernible difference there. It is very possible to not show pride in something yet still show it respect.

 

Kaepernick isn't talking, hollering, screaming or yelling, nor holding up signs while the National Anthem is being played and the flag is being honored. He is quietly taking a knee rather than standing.

 

On the other hand, I'm not sure how respectful (or prideful) the NFL fans are who have been out drinking and tailgating in the parking lots since 9am as they stand and shuffle around drunkenly in the beer lines waiting for another drink during the National Anthem as they whine about how they need to get their beer so they can go take a leak...instead of standing silently at attention with their hat off and their hand over their heart.

 

I challenge you to show me where any President, politician, NFL fan or NFL owner who has said anything about that in public platform.

 

Truth!!!

Come on...he defends those who serve?

 

We're talking about a guy who accepted four student deferments so he DIDN'T have to serve in Vietnam, who is on record as attacking Senator McCain who was a Vietnam POW for 5-1/2 for not being a war hero because he was captured. He's also made claims that McCain has done very little for veterans...and that was after McCain had (among other things) been co-sponsor of a bill that overhauled the VA in 2014.

 

He doesn't defend anything but his own agendas.

 

They all defend their own agendas.

They all defend their own agendas.

 

We he doesn't defend the integrity of those who serve...unless it serves his agenda, which it generally does. On the other hand, when defending their integrity doesn't serve his agenda, he doesn't hesitate to crap on veterans' integrity, just like he did with Senator McCain.

Come on...he defends those who serve?

 

We're talking about a guy who accepted four student deferments so he DIDN'T have to serve in Vietnam, who is on record as attacking Senator McCain who was a Vietnam POW for 5-1/2 for not being a war hero because he was captured. He's also made claims that McCain has done very little for veterans...and that was after McCain had (among other things) been co-sponsor of a bill that overhauled the VA in 2014.

 

He doesn't defend anything but his own agendas.

A few others leaders also avoided the draft as well.

We he doesn't defend the integrity of those who serve...unless it serves his agenda, which it generally does. On the other hand, when defending their integrity doesn't serve his agenda, he doesn't hesitate to crap on veterans' integrity, just like he did with Senator McCain.

 

That's is your opinion and mine is different.

That's is your opinion and mine is different.

 

Obviously.

I'm guessing that by now throughout this whole discussion, here and within the media, you have heard many plead for folks to understand that this was not the intent, so do you think that it's possible that they're telling the truth, and if not what might be the motivation behind everyone lying about it?

 

Why not take Kaepernick at his word? He is the one that stated he would not show respect for the flag.

 

Or did he not really mean that when he said it?

Our leaders shouldn't be dishing out bad medicine(or any medicine) to sports figures or leagues.

 

Did you have a problem with POTUS Obama saying police acted stupidly and rushing to judgement on nearly every police involved shooting of a person of color before all the facts were in?

 

Isn't that "dishing out bad medicine"?

Colin Kaepernick did NOT say he will not show respect in the flag. He said he will not show pride in the flag. There is a very, VERY discernible difference there. It is very possible to not show pride in something yet still show it respect.

Kaepernick isn't talking, hollering, screaming or yelling, nor holding up signs while the National Anthem is being played and the flag is being honored. He is quietly taking a knee rather than standing.

 

On the other hand, I'm not sure how respectful (or prideful) the NFL fans are who have been out drinking and tailgating in the parking lots since 9am as they stand and shuffle around drunkenly in the beer lines waiting for another drink during the National Anthem as they whine about how they need to get their beer so they can go take a leak...instead of standing silently at attention with their hat off and their hand over their heart.

 

I challenge you to show me where any President, politician, NFL fan or NFL owner who has said anything about that in public platform.

 

We fundamentally disagree.

Why not take Kaepernick at his word? He is the one that stated he would not show respect for the flag.

 

Or did he not really mean that when he said it?

 

He did NOT say that he would not show respect for the flag. He said he would not show pride in the flag. There is a big difference there.

 

If you're going to try to crucify someone based on a quote, at least try to give the due diligence of getting the quote right.