Phil Robertson Suspended From A&E

[Bert]

Y'know what?

 

You are completely entitled and free to think that way, and I respect you especially that, even with your position, you do not negatively bash anyone, but just for kicks, here's an additional view all for the sake of having various points to ponder. This is not meant to hold you personally responsible for what I aim to expand on, and more specifically to society in general that continues to perpetrate misinformation.

 

What are your feelings on Steve Gershom? Below is a link to his Blog.

 

 

 

Gay, Catholic, and Doing Fine - LifeTeen.com for Catholic Youth

[Jumper_Dad]

He's certainly allowed to do that, and I'm certainly allowed to say his brand of humor is not to my liking... and being a free citizen in a free society, I'm also allowed to say that I think that he's a self-appointed mislead subjective arrogant idiot who enjoys the sound of his own voice.

:lol2:

[dd734]

Y'know what?

 

You are completely entitled and free to think that way, and I respect you especially that, even with your position, you do not negatively bash anyone, but just for kicks, here's an additional view all for the sake of having various points to ponder. This is not meant to hold you personally responsible for what I aim to expand on, and more specifically to society in general that continues to perpetrate misinformation.

 

Y'know what?

 

After being trained by a culture that in many ways doesn't "approve" of homosexuality, even millions of young, and sometimes very healthy talented intelligent and otherwise 'normal' adolescents who start recognizing his or her own 'unchosen' homosexual tendencies at a young age have big time difficulty with his or her own self-esteam because their inexperienced young minds have no understanding of why they feel this way, and have nothing else to go on with their self-identity than to think that they are a 'misfit' because they've been taught they were one by an unaccepting society or religion that told them so.

 

In this early confused self-awareness they too "do not approve" and only wish that they weren't, but can't understand why they can't help it, so as they continue on in their teen years they try and try and try to see if they can just be 'normal' only to find that they can't, and develop a serious identity crisis, and self-hatred, and find themselves never really fitting in or feeling comfortable living even with themselves, and sometimes start to act out in maladjusted behavioral fashion, sometimes even in ways harmful to themselves, and sometimes even contemplating suicide, and some ultimately do kill themselves before they're old enough to think it through and understand that it wasn't them that was abnormal, but just the misinformed society or religion that had so much maladjusted influence on them for them to conclude that there was something wrong with them.

 

Years ago the misinformed society even lead confused homosexuals into medical procedures that included shock treatment and sterilizations only to find that that was gravely ill-effective. Thankfully we've come a long way there in knowing how crazy and ridiculous that was. Wouldn't it be something if some in the present day society could muster the foresight to perhaps understand that where they stand now with their "disapproval" just too might be not in rhythm with reality, and that some day looking back they'd see how misinformed they were.

 

I personally know a girl who was so riddled by an unaccepting upbringing leading to a self-hatred because of her innate attractions to girls that in her early twenties had a sex change so that she could be a boy with attractions to girls like 'normal' people do. Sarah became Seth. I firmly believe that if society hadn't severely messed her head up, Sarah could still be Sarah who's now in her 40's and could've given a bit more time for her mental maturity to finally overrule her younger fears and self-understanding, and understand how society's influence on her wouldn't allow her to just be herself, just the way she was.

 

Some people, because of religion, go into intense religious based corrective attempts by groups who gravely exaggerate their claims of helping people recover, when in truth they have zero effect at "correcting" anyone, but just promote people, including the organization themselves, to learn how to lie to themselves to the Nth degree and live in complete denial. They are so full of it, and their claims are a complete load of hurtful rubbish.

 

Sometimes people (WAY TOO NUMEROUS TO COUNT) will try so hard because of their own "self disapproval" caused by society, to enter into a heterosexual relationship and get married hoping that their feelings will miraculously vanish only to find that they don't, and end up living a lie and also ruining the life of their husband or wife. They weren't trying to be deceptive, but they had believed society so much to believe that there was a chance that if they just tried to be straight that perhaps they could be.

 

Some homosexuals who are lucky enough to think it through and perhaps even have accepting family and friends who "approve" come to find that their own self-approval opens up so many doors in life to live fulfilling loving productive lives without the burden of a self-depreciating identity living in fear and self-hatred leading them to suffer a life of loneliness and paranoia or even create hurtful lives for others that may walk into a lie of a marriage with them.

 

Just imagine how much negative self-awareness could be lifted for millions of sometimes very healthy talented intelligent and otherwise 'normal' adolescents growing up in fear with often suicidal tendencies, if the general populace could somehow think it through as well, and find someway to eventually understand it more clearly enough to "approve", for if they did there'd be a world of difference in the lives of so many millions of sometimes very healthy talented intelligent and otherwise 'normal' adolescents who never chose to be gay, and that they could feel free to live loving fulfilling productive lives.

 

It may seem extreme to isolate the one word "approval" and expand on it so much to the point that some might think overkill, but I think it's a bit overkill that so much of some in society's lack of "approval" continues to perpetrate all the severe ill-effects that a "disapproving" society has for so many years, ill-affecting the lives of so many who absolutely had no choice in the matter, and for the lucky ones who find that life is worth living, and nothing in their self-acceptant life caused anything bad that warranted all the fears they grew up with, or any of the negative attitude they encountered by the society around them, they can lead happy lives. So many are not so lucky, and it may appear that a homosexual's happiness does not hinge of society's "approval", but for 100% of those who found happiness it took a great amount of strength to finally climb the mountain of freedom, and for so many others it ended with living a lie or even ending their lives.

 

So when anyone thinks that their "disapproval" is just an opinion and it doesn't have any bad affect, think again. History has shown that it does, and that "disapproval" continues to perpetrate all the unnecessary ill-affects that have been perpetrated for years and years, when only a bit of understanding, and an informed eventual arrival at "approval" would make a world of difference in an eventual more freer productive loving fulfilling world for all, just as it should be.

 

WOW. So if I read your take on things correctly. You disapprove of my beliefs, that's fine. You are also a person I don't completely agree with, but I will never belittle you or your beliefs or treat you with anything other than respect. As well, if you can find anyone, or anything that shows that I have ever treated anyone differently because of their life choices, please let me know. As I said, I have family and friends that are homosexual. My wish for them is no different than that of any of my family and friends. Healthy, happy, and prosperous lives.

 

I do however get the feeling you are, in a nice way, lumping me into the groups with gay bashers and homophobes. As well, if you believe the remarks in my original post are mean spirited and hate ridden, to the degree they could alter a persons life. Then those people are going to have many problems in life that have nothing to do with my own personal beliefs.

 

My beliefs are my own, here is one passage, from Romans 1:26-27... I base my beliefs on.......

 

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

 

I always open to being enlightened. Give me a New Testament Scripture that refutes these verses and says Homosexuality is acceptable in the eyes of God. Yes God does love each of us. Each of us will be judged by God for our short comings and sins. It is not for me to say what sin is, I can only rely on what I get from the Written Word of God.

 

I Try daily to cut my loses, believe me I have a huge pile of sins to answer for, so saying some else is wrong about their beliefs is not another one I care to add to the pile. I would however like the opportunity to have my beliefs and not be lambasted by those that disagree.

 

If I'm wrong, I'll have to answer to God for my beliefs.

[PurplePride92]

I think the entire matter was mishandled, start to finish. I don't see it as a freedom of speech issue. I'm sure it was motivated by money on one side or another. I personally do not approve of homosexuality. I as well know, many people do approve. I do have family and friends that are homosexual. I don't belittle them, I don't talk badly about them. I do believe however that we will all be judged some day, and that is not my job, or yours, THANK GOODNESS. I do my best to not judge anyone just because I believe they sin differently than me. I as well believe that it has become less acceptable to stand up for Christian values and beliefs. To me this is much bigger than Duck Dynasty or A&E. It seems that many groups demand respect for their beliefs, and shun those that disagree with them. However, those same groups don't seem to be willing to give the same rights to others that have beliefs they disagree with. I'll stand down off my soap box now.

 

 

I think sometimes it is all about delivery. Your delivery was perfect and your post was well stated. I feel like sometimes(not in this case) when people stand up for Christian beliefs they wait until they get called out to say they don't treat people any differently or they add clarification after they feel they have been persecuted. Delivery goes a long way. I always feel like people who get a reaction from things they have said were always initially going for that reaction immediately.

[B-Ball-fan]

WOW. So if I read your take on things correctly. You disapprove of my beliefs, that's fine. You are also a person I don't completely agree with, but I will never belittle you or your beliefs or treat you with anything other than respect. As well, if you can find anyone, or anything that shows that I have ever treated anyone differently because of their life choices, please let me know. As I said, I have family and friends that are homosexual. My wish for them is no different than that of any of my family and friends. Healthy, happy, and prosperous lives.

 

I do however get the feeling you are, in a nice way, lumping me into the groups with gay bashers and homophobes. As well, if you believe the remarks in my original post are mean spirited and hate ridden, to the degree they could alter a persons life. Then those people are going to have many problems in life that have nothing to do with my own personal beliefs.

 

My beliefs are my own, here is one passage, from Romans 1:26-27... I base my beliefs on.......

 

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

 

I always open to being enlightened. Give me a New Testament Scripture that refutes these verses and says Homosexuality is acceptable in the eyes of God. Yes God does love each of us. Each of us will be judged by God for our short comings and sins. It is not for me to say what sin is, I can only rely on what I get from the Written Word of God.

 

I Try daily to cut my loses, believe me I have a huge pile of sins to answer for, so saying some else is wrong about their beliefs is not another one I care to add to the pile. I would however like the opportunity to have my beliefs and not be lambasted by those that disagree.

 

If I'm wrong, I'll have to answer to God for my beliefs.

 

dd734

 

I'm sorry that you felt that this was directed at you. It's obvious to me that you're a decent guy. I was hoping that by my first paragraph you could see that it wasn't aimed at you, and that I was using the word "approve" as a springboard to express what ill effects years and years of "disapproval" have had on so many people throughout time, when most in society have never given much thought to how extremely painful that mass amount of "disapproval" has been to so many people who have not chosen to be gay, and try to live with it when they never wanted to be gay to begin with because "they too" were raised in a world that gave them the idea that it was wrong, and when most gays are quite young they have tremendous inner struggle because of the general consensus that society and religion have taught them that it was wrong, while inside they know that they didn't choose it.

 

Here again is the first paragraph for you to see again, so that you can see that I initially was trying to NOT hold you personally responsible, and that it was society that I was directing it to. If I did not choose my words in the best way for you to understand that before reading the rest of my long post, then I am sorry, but here you might see that I tried -

 

"You are completely entitled and free to think that way, and I respect you especially that, even with your position, you do not negatively bash anyone, but just for kicks, here's an additional view all for the sake of having various points to ponder. This is not meant to hold you personally responsible for what I aim to expand on, and more specifically to society in general that continues to perpetrate misinformation."

 

So in reading that I hope you can see where I was coming from, and I do understand how you might've been gobsmacked while reading my long post to the point of forgetting that my initial paragraph was wanting you to see that my comments were not directed at you. Please Please Please understand that.

[rjs4470]

 

My beliefs are my own, here is one passage, from Romans 1:26-27... I base my beliefs on.......

 

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

 

I always open to being enlightened. Give me a New Testament Scripture that refutes these verses and says Homosexuality is acceptable in the eyes of God. Yes God does love each of us. Each of us will be judged by God for our short comings and sins. It is not for me to say what sin is, I can only rely on what I get from the Written Word of God.

 

I Try daily to cut my loses, believe me I have a huge pile of sins to answer for, so saying some else is wrong about their beliefs is not another one I care to add to the pile. I would however like the opportunity to have my beliefs and not be lambasted by those that disagree.

 

If I'm wrong, I'll have to answer to God for my beliefs.

 

I understand the bible has several if not many verses that people use to justify their beliefs against homosexuality. But the bible is full of verses that promote violence, the mistreatment and promotion of servitude of women, slavery, and verses that prohibit eating pork or wearing cloths of two different fabrics. In modern translations, many of these verses are not looked at so literally anymore, however, for some reason, the verses about homosexuality don't get the same pass.

[B-Ball-fan]

What are your feelings on Steve Gershom? Below is a link to his Blog.

 

 

 

Gay, Catholic, and Doing Fine - LifeTeen.com for Catholic Youth

 

Thank you for this article and requesting of me to comment on it.

 

I found this article from Steve Gershom quite interesting, and I would not be one of those who find him a freak for choosing celibacy as his answer for his homosexuality that he did not choose.

 

In my post I was not suggesting that homosexuals were the only people who suffered challenges in life, but was singling out and magnifying what challenges they do have because homosexuality was the topic at hand.

 

I'm not surprised that he has been viewed as a freak by some, and it wouldn't surprise me that if some of those folks who didn't understand him were also gay.

 

Again, in my post I wasn't trying to indicate that all homosexuals are were wonderfully understanding objective people. I've run across many who certainly weren't.

 

Years ago I noticed (although this is was my general perception, and thankfully this seems to be beginning to change) that gay men and gay woman didn't exactly seem to get along famously in social settings together. I was dumbfounded that there appeared sometimes to be a prejudice between them, and I couldn't believe that their own strife with prejudice hadn't taught them anything.

 

Another form of prejudice I noticed sometimes in a predominantly gay social setting was one of age discrimination. So yes indeed, some gays can be terribly illogical in the acceptance department.

 

Regarding Steve Gershom, I would completely support his decision, and If I were in his company would never try to sway him from that decision. He has found it to be one that makes him deal with it the best, and makes the most sense for him to exist and be happy in this life with.

 

I too was raised Catholic, and prayed to God, and questioned why I was this way, and questioned as to whether or not I'd be wrong to summit to the natural unchosen feelings that I was experiencing while growing up that were of zero sexual attraction to woman, and an attraction that was just as powerful to me as a straight attraction would be for a young straight man. I couldn't understand why, but I knew that I didn't choose it anymore than a straight guy did is his powerful feelings he had for woman. I began to question religion and just how much of it was truly and completely God's rules, or man's rules claiming God as the author of them.

 

I have no concrete answer for that, and I don't know how those who claim to do either. I know it's easier for fundamentalists of the Bible to single out passages written by men in the name of God, then it is for someone who is gay without choice to not question its validity. When you're walking in the shoes of someone who is condemned by others in God's name, and know that you're not a bad person when they think that you are, you sort of wonder if it makes any sense at all that God had anything to do with these passages that they claim that he did.

 

With my observance while growing up of society and religion being condemning of homosexuals, but nary any of them seeming to understand that it was not a choice, I had grave doubts that I could trust their assessment. I never once heard while growing up a religion approaching it with a sense of understanding, and only one of condemnation that made me conclude that they were all wet, and how could I possibly follow society and religion's teachings when I saw no sense of compassion or understanding? If it wasn't discussed it was swept under the rug as a taboo topic.

 

Then I could never understand how bullying, hatred and gaybashing towards gays wasn't magnified as something terrible, while instead it seemed to be encouraged, or left to be an accepted thing that society wouldn't admit about itself.

 

With my personal questioning while an adolescent, I knew that I was a more passive type person, and was the last guy to be a rough and tumbling fight starter all the while knowing that the gaybashers were getting their pass, while me, being a responsible student with perfect attendance who went to church with my parents, would not if anyone knew. Didn't make much sense.

 

Me being gay would've been magnified placing me at the bottom of rung of the social latter as being scum. People might forget now with the world becoming more acceptant, that this is the fear that homosexuals lived under for years. If kids in my neighborhood knew that I was gay, I might not even be here to talk about it. That is no exaggeration. I grew up in a hood where one of my neighbors (who actually did beat me up as a kid just for kicks), shot a girl dead because she wouldn't put out.

 

Steve Gershom believes in the teachings of his religion therefore I can understand how he arrived at his decision, whereas I concluded that although I do believe in a higher power, the one that man has introduced to me is not the same guy I know. My God understands me and it would be illogical of him to create me and expect me not to be who I am.

 

By following who I am I have experienced love in a very meaningful and spiritual way with someone else who has experienced love in a very meaningful and spiritual everlasting eternal way with me and still is completely apart of my life although he has passed on to be born into his eternal life, and that human that I love just happens to be a man. No man made religion can convince that I'm wrong for that.

 

Whereas I said that I can understand where Steve is coming from, I can't help but question how much man made religion has a hold on him to arrive at his decision. In choosing celibacy he is essentially saying that homosexuality is wrong while he didn't choose to be that way. I wonder what he would think of my assessment, and my experience in life, and with his religious teachings how he couldn't conclude that I must be wrong because I don't buy into Catholicism as he does. Understanding me and believing as he does is a paradox.

 

While he sounds like he's thought this out and is in good control of his life through his religion, and is an accepting person, there are some very poignant thoughts behind John Lennon's "Imagine" and by calling Mr. Lennon and idiot, that it's obvious to me that he doesn't get.

 

Steve is doing what he can to live with himself in this world, and if it works for him, that's cool. My thinking on the matter, and my life and love experiences has had me opt for a different avenue than the one he is taking and I've no doubt that I've taken the right one that works best for me. Through experiencing love, I understand love to be something eternal and all apart of God's love, and goes far beyond the physical, but just like a straight couple knows, it sure is nice to cuddle up with the one you love and that feeling with the one you love is one of wonderful peace and secureness within that love.

[dd734]

I understand the bible has several if not many verses that people use to justify their beliefs against homosexuality. But the bible is full of verses that promote violence, the mistreatment and promotion of servitude of women, slavery, and verses that prohibit eating pork or wearing cloths of two different fabrics. In modern translations, many of these verses are not looked at so literally anymore, however, for some reason, the verses about homosexuality don't get the same pass.

 

Here to answer your pork comment, Mark 7:15-23)....treatment of women..The Bible says that a man should treat any woman that is not his wife in a strictly pure manner (1 Timothy 5:1-2). It also states that men should treat their wives well and make sacrifices for them (Ephesians 5:25)...Slavery, there's so much. One thing, some slaves in those days, sold themselves into slavery to pay off debt or provide for their family. There are also passages telling how slaves should be treated...(Deuteronomy 15:12-15)...........The two fabrics is all over the board, the mixing of wool and linen. Do you know of anything made from wool and linen? Many contradictions.

There is an old covenant and a new covenant. The old covenant was completed and finished with the death and burial of Jesus. The new covenant was enacted with the resurrection of Jesus and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

If you search the Bible you may find contradictions on most of your points.

 

However, there are many passages against homosexuality in the Bible. Do you know of any passages where the Bible says it is OK?

 

This is all I have to say, I did not intend to get into a Bible battle with anyone.

[B-Ball-fan]

Real interesting true story about a Christian raised kid who comes out to his Christian parents staring Sigourney Weaver where the Bible is discussed. Those who do not approve of homosexuality may closely identify with Sigourney Weaver's character.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nillhjr4FUs

[rjs4470]

Here to answer your pork comment, Mark 7:15-23)....treatment of women..The Bible says that a man should treat any woman that is not his wife in a strictly pure manner (1 Timothy 5:1-2). It also states that men should treat their wives well and make sacrifices for them (Ephesians 5:25)...Slavery, there's so much. One thing, some slaves in those days, sold themselves into slavery to pay off debt or provide for their family. There are also passages telling how slaves should be treated...(Deuteronomy 15:12-15)...........The two fabrics is all over the board, the mixing of wool and linen. Do you know of anything made from wool and linen? Many contradictions.

There is an old covenant and a new covenant. The old covenant was completed and finished with the death and burial of Jesus. The new covenant was enacted with the resurrection of Jesus and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

If you search the Bible you may find contradictions on most of your points.

 

However, there are many passages against homosexuality in the Bible. Do you know of any passages where the Bible says it is OK?

 

This is all I have to say, I did not intend to get into a Bible battle with anyone.

 

I wasn't looking to bible battle either. My only point was the bible is full of contradictions, and there are many verses that most would recognize as quite outdated, and perhaps should not be interpreted so literally. The times that the bible was written in is quite different than current times. It just seems that efforts are made to reinterpret some of the more out there biblical verses except those pertaining to homosexuality. I don't understand how we can ignore and reinterpret references to human sacrifice for example, but yet homosexuality doesn't get the same leniency.

[Bert]

Thank you for this article and requesting of me to comment on it.

 

Thank you for your reply. Steve is in an unfortunate situation where he is attacked by both sides. Groups similar to GLAAD (not sure if it was specifically GLAAD but similar groups) have condemned him basically calling him a sellout to religion. On the flip side, some conservative Christian groups condemn him saying if he truly accepted God, he wouldn't be gay which he just shakes his head and reiterates that he did not just up and decide he was attracted to men, it just happened, same as straight men while growing up become attracted to women.

 

I don't recall if it was Steve or another celibate homosexual who stated that he cannot answer why God allowed him to be born gay the same way he cannot answer why God would allow people to be born with disabilities, it is just something he was called to accept until he makes it to the next world where he will be welcomed to the banquet of heaven. After saying this, the speaker was quick to point out that he does not view his homosexuality or anyone else's as a disability, he was just using disabilities as a comparison as to why we cannot assume we can understand why God does the things He does. Some things are just beyond our understanding.

[B-Ball-fan]

Thank you for your reply. Steve is in an unfortunate situation where he is attacked by both sides. Groups similar to GLAAD (not sure if it was specifically GLAAD but similar groups) have condemned him basically calling him a sellout to religion. On the flip side, some conservative Christian groups condemn him saying if he truly accepted God, he wouldn't be gay which he just shakes his head and reiterates that he did not just up and decide he was attracted to men, it just happened, same as straight men while growing up become attracted to women.

 

I don't recall if it was Steve or another celibate homosexual who stated that he cannot answer why God allowed him to be born gay the same way he cannot answer why God would allow people to be born with disabilities, it is just something he was called to accept until he makes it to the next world where he will be welcomed to the banquet of heaven. After saying this, the speaker was quick to point out that he does not view his homosexuality or anyone else's as a disability, he was just using disabilities as a comparison as to why we cannot assume we can understand why God does the things He does. Some things are just beyond our understanding.

 

In an excerpt from the article Steve said:

 

"So the Church doesn’t oppose gay marriage because it’s wrong; she opposes it because it’s impossible, just as impossible as living on sand. The Church believes, and I believe, in a universe that means something, and in a God who made the universe — made men and women, designed sex and marriage from the ground up. In that universe, gay marriage doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t fit with the rest of the picture, and we’re not about to throw out the rest of the picture."

 

I would be interested in asking anyone who completely follows this line of thinking if they think that it would be ok for a straight sterile man not capable of procreating to marry a woman knowing that children will not come as a result of the union?

 

Also, an older couple where the woman is past her child bearing years who meet after perhaps both of them have lost their spouses to death. Would it be ok knowing that they will not procreate to marry?

 

I honestly have never heard of anyone objecting to these such scenarios, except in the case of the older couple sometimes meddlesome children of these seniors can try to interfere with their aging parent's relationship choices for fear of what may happen to their estates if he/she were to pass.

 

Should people in these such type situations be expected to not experience a loving courtship that includes a sexual relationship?

[Bert]

I would be interested in asking anyone who completely follows this line of thinking if they think that it would be ok for a straight sterile man not capable of procreating to marry a woman knowing that children will not come as a result of the union?

 

Also, an older couple where the woman is past her child bearing years who meet after perhaps both of them have lost their spouses to death. Would it be ok knowing that they will not procreate to marry?

 

I honestly have never heard of anyone objecting to these such scenarios, except in the case of the older couple sometimes meddlesome children of these seniors can try to interfere with their aging parent's relationship choices for fear of what may happen to their estates if he/she were to pass.

 

Should people in these such type situations be expected to not experience a loving courtship that includes a sexual relationship?

 

I know for the Catholic Church and some others, the man and wife must be able to consummate the marriage to make it a valid marriage because in the wedding, the man and wife promise their bodies to each other. If the guy turns out to be impotent and cannot consummate, he basically made promise that he is unable to keep.

 

In terms of fertility, the couple most be open to children, ie do nothing to permanently and artificially ensure conception does not occur. Of one or the other is naturally assumed sterile, the marriage is valid. I say assumed sterile due to the cases where assumed sterile couples some how do conceive like a couple down the street when I was growing up.

[B-Ball-fan]

I know for the Catholic Church and some others, the man and wife must be able to consummate the marriage to make it a valid marriage because in the wedding, the man and wife promise their bodies to each other. If the guy turns out to be impotent and cannot consummate, he basically made promise that he is unable to keep.

 

In terms of fertility, the couple most be open to children, ie do nothing to permanently and artificially ensure conception does not occur. Of one or the other is naturally assumed sterile, the marriage is valid. I say assumed sterile due to the cases where assumed sterile couples some how do conceive like a couple down the street when I was growing up.

 

As you have pointed out here, there are church guidelines in place regarding these such scenarios, but in practice does the church actually make a point of demanding or enforcing them, and does society at large ever display any objection?

 

Perhaps in olden days, I'm guessing that there have been cases where the church truly did abide strictly to these guidelines, but I would say that in the present day leniency would likely be the common practice.

 

I agree that in some cases that wonderfully an unforeseen pregnancy can occur for couples who thought that they were incapable, but ultimately my initial question is mostly aiming at pointing out the lack of concern by religion and society in general about couples marrying under the various circumstances that I suggested, while reasons to discount a gay couple's union, in that they cannot procreate, is largely applied, and openly frowned upon by many, while ignoring that this loving union is as real as any union, and void of the same acknowledgment, acceptance, and benefits offered to straight couples who cannot procreate.

[Bert]

As you have pointed out here, there are church guidelines in place regarding these such scenarios, but in practice does the church actually make a point of demanding or enforcing them, and does society at large ever display any objection?

 

Perhaps in olden days, I'm guessing that there have been cases where the church truly did abide strictly to these guidelines, but I would say that in the present day leniency would likely be the common practice. .

 

The church does still believe a marriage has not been ratified if consummation did not occur. So theoretically, if a couple were to marry and one of the couple were to refuse to consummate the marriage, the other would be able to, if they chose to, to have the marriage annulled and remarry in the future if they wish. If I am not mistaking, KY state law has a similar view. If a similar instance were to happen, you would not seek a divorce, the state would annul the marriage license.

 

I agree that in some cases that wonderfully an unforeseen pregnancy can occur for couples who thought that they were incapable, but ultimately my initial question is mostly aiming at pointing out the lack of concern by religion and society in general about couples marrying under the various circumstances that I suggested, while reasons to discount a gay couple's union, in that they cannot procreate, is largely applied, and openly frowned upon by many, while ignoring that this loving union is as real as any union, and void of the same acknowledgment, acceptance, and benefits offered to straight couples who cannot procreate.

 

I have two assumptions why the Catholic Church (and many other Christian faiths I suppose) will accept the validity of the marriage of a sterile couple but then use the non procreative aspect of gay sex as one of the reasons to not recognize gay marriage. The first is the fact that Abraham and Sarah's marriage was seen as valid in the bible despite their sterility. The theory being if the Bible says it is OK, who are we to question it. My second assumption is that the church looks at heterosexual and homosexual unions on general terms, not the specific couples. In other words, heterosexual unions have the ability to create offspring and therefore are valid. If a specific heterosexual couple is sterile, they are not denied marriage since the union is heterosexual in nature. While my guess is this reason would state that homosexual unions can never produce offspring so the church's view is that such a union goes against natural law. Again, these are my assumptions of what the church would say.

 

I heard another view in regards to natural law in how the human bodies were designed. I will try not to go too far in this to become graphic but this view points out how male and female sex organs are "designed for each other" naturally, ie they line up so the couple are facing each other and can embrace during the act. The female sex organ is naturally designed to be able to accept the male's sex organ. The view points out that God designed the couples to naturally fit together where as a couple of the same gender is not designed to fit together so nicely so to speak so the view believes God never meant for them to have sex together. I have no idea if this is a church teaching or just that person's personal view.