Roger Clemens = Cheater???

[swamprat]

Why do people always try to smear the names of great ones when there is nothing there but ones own conspiracy theory?

ESPN effect.

[Black Ant]

There are a lot of us that are bigger today than we were when we were younger, it is called the "age" steroid.

 

 

Roger Clemens is a physical specimen.

[MountainThunder]

So just because of his age and success, he's using enhancements.....I attribute his recent success, over 40 to several factors.

 

1) His conditioning routine and workout program

2) Not traveling with his team, on many away games, unless pitching

3) Minimal work in early portion of season

4) Competitive nature and mental approach

 

Great post, and add a fifth reason

 

5) Proper technique

[mexitucky]

Like an earlier post stated, there is no specific period that you can point to for Clemens like one can for Bonds and Sosa. Sosa was stealing bases and was so much smaller and Bonds was smaller too and in the first ten years of his career, which in most circumstances is pretty much the prime, he averaged about 29 homers a year, the next ten over 40, that sticks out like a turd in a punch bowl.

 

Clemens is much larger than '86. While some of that is natural progression, a lot of it isn't. The one positive he has going for him is that in a book where Canseco threw everyone under the bus, Clemens received only compliments. I think that that is a tell. However, let's look at Clemens last few years at Boston and then when he was traded to Toronto.

Here is the link: http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/clemero02.shtml.

I'm not going to put all of the stats side-by-side, but I think that a case can definitely be made either way.

[mexitucky]

I can't believe this is even being discussed.

Clemons has shown none of the signs of steroid use like Bonds, Sosa,McGuire, or Canseco.

 

He has a tremendous work ethic and is in tremendous condition.

Ryan also pitched well into his 40's...Maddox, Johnson.

Heck, What about Cal Ripken??? I guess now someone will start a thread asking what he was on to be able to play in 2,632 consecutive games.:irked:

 

Clemons has been a special type pitcher since his college days.

 

Why do people always try to smear the names of great ones when there is nothing there but ones own conspiracy theory?

 

Maddox, Johnson, and Ripken's didn't take their careers to another level late in there 30's and early into their 40's. That's where the suspicion lies.

[saint4]

So, if Ken Griffey Jr. hits 30-40 home runs when he is in his early 40s, is someone going to post that he used steroids too?

[STRIKE3]

It's a shame, that we assume the worst of athletes, because they have success and outwork others. I even thought Clemens, looked a little overweight in the mid-section, the other night....I guess he forgot his enhancements....

 

I'll take Clemens and his work ethic, over any MLB pitcher.

 

I saw Clemens, when he and Calvin Schraldi pitched for Texas, both were very lean, skinny and young, like many current and former players, A-Rod, Jeter, Griffey, Frank Thomas, Daryl Strawberry, Ripken, Robin Yount and so on....bodies change and fitness, conditioning and nutrition, work wonders for these athletes.

[dinoradja]

Clemens is much larger than '86. While some of that is natural progression, a lot of it isn't. The one positive he has going for him is that in a book where Canseco threw everyone under the bus, Clemens received only compliments. I think that that is a tell. However, let's look at Clemens last few years at Boston and then when he was traded to Toronto.

Here is the link: http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/clemero02.shtml.

I'm not going to put all of the stats side-by-side, but I think that a case can definitely be made either way.

Yes, he had a great two year run in Toronto going a combined 41-13 but when he went to New York his first two years there he went a total of 27-18,

not even close to the numbers he had with the Blue Jays. Truth is he was out to prove something to the Red Sox when he went to the Blue Jays and he did that. And like I said earlier with Bonds numbers being so distinctly different it was to very different DECADES, first 10 years averaged around 29 home runs per year then the next ten years averaged over 40. Now that is soemthing that is very distinct and Bonds did not just put on some weight as he got older, his head is bigger along with the rest of his body. I cannot say 100 percent that Clemens never did anything or that Bonds did but if I had to bet on one I would lay my money on Barry being the cheater.

[firebird]

:thumb: :thumb: Couldn't have said it better, the Rockets work ethic is like no other MLB player imo. He is relentless as a competitor. His body certainly doesn'r resemble that of one that is juicing.

 

I obviously don't know if he ever took them, He may have but I just don't think so with the factors mentioned above and by some others.

Actually I have a very good friend who pitched in the Blue Jays organization with Clemens and he told me that he never could understand the hoopla and the publicity that Clemens got over his workout routine because it wasn't much different than what he and the rest of the other guys were doing. Maybe Mother Nature just treats some of us a little different than she does some of the others when our years start to advance. We'll refer to it as the Dick Clark syndrome.

[bugatti]

Actually I have a very good friend who pitched in the Blue Jays organization with Clemens and he told me that he never could understand the hoopla and the publicity that Clemens got over his workout routine because it wasn't much different than what he and the rest of the other guys were doing. Maybe Mother Nature just treats some of us a little different than she does some of the others when our years start to advance. We'll refer to it as the Dick Clark syndrome.

:thumb:

 

As I said earlier, I have a hard time believing that Clemens works harder than EVERYONE else (which many claim) during the offseason and that is why he is still able to perform well. I do not buy that. I do agree with you that some have different results with routines. There is just no way he is the only person that works out hard and has good nutrition.

 

I also think it fair to add that Clemens great numbers of the past three seasons came against NL competition... something that has to work in a pitcher's favor.

[STRIKE3]

:thumb:

 

As I said earlier, I have a hard time believing that Clemens works harder than EVERYONE else (which many claim) during the offseason and that is why he is still able to perform well. I do not buy that. I do agree with you that some have different results with routines. There is just no way he is the only person that works out hard and has good nutrition.

 

I also think it fair to add that Clemens great numbers of the past three seasons came against NL competition... something that has to work in a pitcher's favor.

I'll agree and I know of whom Firebird is speaking of but I'll say at the time, I don't think Clemens had the conditioning program then with the BlueJays, he does now.

 

Your point regarding NL, is 100% solid in my book, as it's one less quality batter to face. With that said, he's also been known as a power pitcher but developed a sinker, second to none, which helps him stay in games and induces GB's. If being good was easy, many would still be in the game and be pitching, into their 40's.

 

I may be discussing a moot point, but I don't see Clemens taking illegal enhancements....just my opinion. He's won 350 games and I can name more pitchers, who will never reach that total, than I can who will ever achieve it. He's worthy of some benefit of the doubt.

 

I'll equate Clemens to Gary Player and his fitness routine....He's extended his career and changed his approach, toward pitching and conditioning.

[h.s.sportsrbest]

Ah, the Witch Hunt continues.

[Jim Schue]

It's a shame, that we assume the worst of athletes, because they have success and outwork others.

 

Doesn't that have a lot to do with the mountains of information we have about athletes and how their skills decline with age, and that when one of them is an extreme exception to established patterns we are used to, it sends up red flags because it goes so much against the norm?

[STRIKE3]

Doesn't that have a lot to do with the mountains of information we have about athletes and how their skills decline with age, and that when one of them is an extreme exception to established patterns we are used to, it sends up red flags because it goes so much against the norm?

Could be but more probably, we as a society like to hear the negative reports about people. If flipping through the channels on TV or radio, we bypass the story about a players going 3-5 but the lead sports story, will be a coaches argument, fight, injury or something negative, which will cause us stop and listen.

 

I would rather have the positive aspects of sports, be offered and not the speculation, because some are better.

 

Is Biggio, Mariano, Nomar, Glavine, Omar Vizquel and other veterans, being suspected of a similar use.

[bellalumni40]

Could be but more probably, we as a society like to hear the negative reports about people. If flipping through the channels on TV or radio, we bypass the story about a players going 3-5 but the lead sports story, will be a coaches argument, fight, injury or something negative, which will cause us stop and listen.

 

I would rather have the positive aspects of sports, be offered and not the speculation, because some are better.

 

Is Biggio, Mariano, Nomar, Glavine, Omar Vizquel and other veterans, being suspected of a similar use.

I think Rocket gets more criticism on that comparison b/c he is a power player, unlike the other guys you mentioned. Mariano is kind of, but he has one hard deceptive pitch, and guys are catching up to him a bit more now as well. The power guys generally dont hold up as well.