Honest question, help me understand..... Fans & Coaches

[Fear the Nation]

This question and thread took me back about 11 months or so. Check out the Simon Kenton 41 Ryle 23 thread from November 13, 2015 and you'll see some familiar posters that knew a lot more than the Ryle coaches last year. Ironic.

 

Tame compared to the HHS threads and one participant was a coach.

[psychicscubadiver]

In my opinion, the biggest part that causes it is that the fans who question aren't as close to the program. Not that they don't care, but without being in the absolute thick of it, they don't have the same perspective as the coach. A play call or position change may seem foolish on the surface to the fans because they aren't working with the same info that the coach has. The coaches may not be able, or may not choose to explain themselves for their decisions. This makes it all the easier for people to second-guess them, especially when a team isn't doing well.

 

Few people are truly immune to that. I love Beatty to death and hope that he stays at Trinity for a good, long time, but even then I have (very rarely) disagreed with some play calls. Am I qualified to do his job? Not by a long shot, but everyone forms their own opinions sometimes.

 

The part of it is that every once in a while the fan is right. Coaches are human and it's possible for them to make mistakes. Does this mean that the fan could do their job? Not a chance, but expecting anyone to be absolutely perfect is a recipe for a letdown, and people can learn from the mistakes they make.

[ATLCat]

Though I completely endorse Chief's message and 100% agree with him, I do want to be the Devil's Advocate as well for the sake of discussion.

 

One of the best messages our Pastor ever spoke about was "Blind Spots".

 

It is human nature to be creatures of habit and to let our experiences or our view on what we think is correct to be our guiding focus and put blinders on us in every endeavor whether it be how we approach our family, our faith, our politics, or our careers. Often we become so obsessed with our perspective on things that we don't see our own failures or our own short comings.

 

Though Coaches know more than all of us, is it really fair to assume that they are perfect in their judgment and perspective and that they don't have blindspots as well?

 

You could probably also file this under "seeing the forest for the trees" or "Paralysis by analysis". I do think there are instances where coaches have been known to overthink a situation from information overload, I also think there are instances where coaches have underestimated their opponent based off arrogance or even bias, I'll even say there may be instances where a coach is so head strong that his way "should" work that they try to fit a square peg in a round hole.

 

It is a profession and just because you work at a job or a career doesn't make you good at it. In my daily industry I deal with "intellectually deficient" people from time to time and I am sure the same could be said in the coaching ranks as well.

 

Once again, this is just me playing Devil's advocate as I would say the vast majority of the time the fan has absolutely no clue what they are saying and should probably just check their baggage at the door.

[Sweeperboy]

Would a moderator pls change the thread topic to read

 

Honest question, help me understand..... HIGHLANDS Fans & Coaches... :thumb:

[ATLCat]

^^^^

 

With respect I don't think it is fair to assume he is talking about Highlands. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. ChiefSmoke is a very well respected coach with years of experience and I think these type of fans exist at every single program and you can even hear them chirp when a team is 10-0 and winning every game 56-0. I am sure Chief even had fans at Mason and Mercer who second guessed him before he even had the chance to First Guess lol

 

Whatever his reason for posting this I think it is good discussion for everyone.

[ChiefSmoke]

Would a moderator pls change the thread topic to read

 

Honest question, help me understand..... HIGHLANDS Fans & Coaches... :thumb:

 

Sorry, but this not directed at Highlands. It is all programs. I will admit though that it applies more to programs that have long range success and that would certainly include the Birds.

[ChiefSmoke]

I received this from a good friend, someone I have great respect for. And, I will admit that although he is not a coach, he certainly knows HS football and quality HS football. I thought this was probably the best answer from the other side of the question.

 

Being given a hat, a whistle and a title of “coach” does not magically turn a person into a good coach. A coach may spend more time around the players, but if the coach doesn’t know what the hades he’s doing, a bunch of time does not magically make the coach make good coaching decisions. There are bad lawyers, bad electricians, bad plumbers, bad mechanics and yes bad coaches.

 

I know enough about electric to see a bad electric job and be able to spot a bad electrician. Likewise, there are fans (in some programs, a lot of fans) that know enough about the game to see bad coaching decisions and be able to spot bad coaches.

 

If you tolerate mediocrity, you will always be mediocre.

[oldrambler]

Chief .... I would be lying if I said that I have never criticized coaches and fully admit that I have on "several :o" occasions. Bottom line is this .... No One, but no one knows his kids / team more than the coaches. Coaches see their players at their best and at their worse every day in practice, before that in pre season w/o's, training. etc. Coaches also sees and knows his team along with their individual work ethic not only in practice, games but how they conduct themselves in the classrooms and in the hallway at school.

I can only admit to, speak for myself but I had no business criticizing any coach in the past, present and yes, I will probably slip and do it in the future. Only one way that I could justify "blasting" any coach would be if a person saw them physically mistreating a kid. I have witnessed exactly that on just a couple or so occasions though 45-50 years of attending gamesand those were an opposing teams coach with his team / player. Thankfully, I have never seen that with / at my alma mater at Raceland. ( I am talking physically laying a hand on- hitting or pulling / twisting a facemask / helmet and jerking a kids neck around .... not just a "butt tearing", I have been the recipient of plenty of those and have to say that I deserved them :lol2:.

[Voice of Reason]

Good thread and good discussion. These last posts have covered some of the points I was going to make. I think ATL's blind spots post is a very good one for coaches and fans.

 

It is very important that coaches keep open minds and eyes and change when necessary. I think it is important that coaches regularly step back from the plan and brainstorm if something else or someone else not used yet might work. Maybe moving a player from here to there might be better for the team. And then take risks on trying some of those ideas out. If players never lose starting jobs or never change position or roles, I think the coaches aren't looking hard enough at other options and ideas. As was said above, players develop at different rates. Sometimes it will just start to click for a player and that changes things for him and the team.

 

On fans, the large majority of them just don't know. They talk out of bias and lack of knowledge. It is very tough as a parent, grandparent, close friend to not be biased. It is especially tough when things change in varsity ball for players. And they change a lot for most players. Up and through freshman football, talent wins out. The best examples of this are kids with speed. Through freshman year, these kids could just run around end and there they go. One opening and they can't be caught. When they get to varsity football, that doesn't work any more. The biggest evolution for running backs when they get to varsity is stop trying to bounce everything outside. Up till then, their speed turned plays into big gains and TD's. Not in varsity ball. The players have all grown closer in maturity and work in the weight room helps those without the natural ability to catch up. This is a tough thing for a lot of fans to see. They want the same things that worked in freshman ball and lower to work in varsity and it isn't even close to the same game.

 

For me, I think fans need to work harder at understanding why coaches do certain things and coaches need to fight to keep an open mind about players and their team. Sometimes the fans are right. It isn't very often but sometimes they are and coaches have to consider that maybe they should try that player or run that play or change their whole scheme.

 

The best example that comes to mind of a coach who did that is Bob Schneider at New Cath. Coach Schneider had successful teams year in and year out. He made three state finals and won a title in the 1980's. In the 1990's, New Cath never reached a state final and by the end of the 90's posted losing seasons (e.g. 2 wins in 1998). Schneider had been at NCC for over 30 years with great success, but guess what - he changed things. He changed his offense and other things in the program. In 2000 they went from 4 wins the previous year to a state runner up finish. Schneider had his greatest success at New Cath in the 2000's after he made the changes. The game evolves and coaches need to change with it. From year to year and game to game.

 

Maybe I am getting off track in this B-Ball-fan like post but hopefully some good thoughts and views are in here.

[BigVMan23]

I will put this from a coaches perspective when I'm not coaching and in the stands watching as a fan.

 

I watch a game (basketball for me but could equate to football or any sport) and I sometimes scratch my head over a lineup change or a play call or a defense being run. Then I have to remind myself...I say "self, you aren't in practice every day, you don't and can't possibly know about the inner workings of the team from a physical, emotional, attitudinal or schoolwork/grades aspect, ALL of which can influence decisions being made". I think sometimes fans get too wrapped up in the "what's going on NOW" and don't take a moment to realize that there was a LOT that happened over several days, weeks and even months that lead up to the "now" happening in front of them. Maybe Johnny Allstar isn't playing because his attitude has absolutely sucked the past few days and he's learning a lesson. Maybe they are playing zone instead of man because they haven't stopped a guy in man defense in a week. Maybe Bronco Smith isn't running the ball at fullback because he jammed his thumb goofing around in the locker room and he can't hold on to the ball. Fans don't always have all the needed info to make an informed decision.

[Sweeperboy]

Sorry, but this not directed at Highlands. It is all programs. I will admit though that it applies more to programs that have long range success and that would certainly include the Birds.

 

I know this, just having fun. But you are spot on, the most criticized are typically the successful programs. I agree the last few posts are really good ones, especially the one from your good friend that you quoted...:thumb:

[CBDV]

The conversation I had today with some guys reinforces my thoughts on some of this.

 

Coaches at the younger levels evaluate not on skill, but by who their friends are and who they think people want them to play where. Who is connected to them and the high school program.

 

Mind blowing, and it adds fuel to the fire.

[CoachJ]

Once I complained to an administrator in my building that with the growing number of players in our program from one year to the next we needed a few more assistant coaches.

 

He said, "Coach, why would you say that? You have about 3 coaches to every one kid in your program."

 

I responded, "I know you're not a math person, but how did you arrive at such a miscalculation."

 

"Well," he said, "if you'd take those darned headsets off and just listen on Friday nights, you'd be able to hear the 200 or so unpaid assistant coaches sitting right behind you helping you call the perfect play." :lol2:

[BITW]

As someone that has been on a few coaching staffs (not football, not high school) and been a fan of all sports, I'd have to say that 8.5/10 times the coaches are right. I have been told by parents that their child is not playing enough, and I have seen coaches buckle and give more playing time to kids that probably should not have gotten it. I have also seen coaches sit kids because their parents wouldn't butt out. There are so many factors that go into whether a kid plays are not. In most cases, the best player plays. But it comes down to nobody that is involved in sports wants to lose. Kids parents that pull their kid and move them here or there because they can "be a star" are not helping anyone. When I was in High School I was fortunate enough to play on a very good basketball team, that really underachieved. I did not have the best relationship with the coaches and felt I was being slighted in playing time because of it, but I knew COACHES WANT TO WIN so instead of complaining or moving schools for more playing time I worked as hard as I could and knew that if I showed to be the best player they would have to play me, regardless of how they felt about it.

[oldgrappler]

I will put this from a coaches perspective when I'm not coaching and in the stands watching as a fan.

 

I watch a game (basketball for me but could equate to football or any sport) and I sometimes scratch my head over a lineup change or a play call or a defense being run. Then I have to remind myself...I say "self, you aren't in practice every day, you don't and can't possibly know about the inner workings of the team from a physical, emotional, attitudinal or schoolwork/grades aspect, ALL of which can influence decisions being made". I think sometimes fans get too wrapped up in the "what's going on NOW" and don't take a moment to realize that there was a LOT that happened over several days, weeks and even months that lead up to the "now" happening in front of them. Maybe Johnny Allstar isn't playing because his attitude has absolutely sucked the past few days and he's learning a lesson. Maybe they are playing zone instead of man because they haven't stopped a guy in man defense in a week. Maybe Bronco Smith isn't running the ball at fullback because he jammed his thumb goofing around in the locker room and he can't hold on to the ball. Fans don't always have all the needed info to make an informed decision.

 

The bolded is a really good point.