Level Playing Field

[Oldbird]

Where did this idea of a level playing field in high school sports come from?

 

Where else do you get / find a level playing field?

[DELTA Rotary]

Where did this idea of a level playing field in high school sports come from?

 

Where else do you get / find a level playing field?

 

 

I dunno but it still wont be level even if they manage to kick out the private schools. There are urban public programs with 10 times the money and facilities and feeder systems than their rural counterparts. There isnt a way to level the playing field.

[All Tell]

There isnt a way to level the playing field.

Sure there is.....

 

 

200+ state football champions:confused:

[ladiesbballcoach]

Sure there is.....

 

 

200+ state football champions:confused:

Apologies to OB because I know this is not what you aimed this thread at but I felt the need to repost something I posted in another thread and no one responded to.

 

BTW, on the %'s, if the average number of players per squad is only 30, we would still only be talking about LESS THAN 1%.

 

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With an approximate 220 schools playing football and let's say an average of 50 players per squad, that is an approximate 11,000 kids playing football. With the addition of 2 more championships, we are talking an approximate another 100 kids that will hoist a championship trophy.

 

So the watering down and the every kid getting a trophy/participation ribbon argument boils down to LESS THAN 1% of the kids playing football actually receiving one of the new football state trophies. I would not call that watering down.

 

But what about having more kids involved. Another 58 schools will see postseason action that will not this year. Most will be one additional game. Some lucky ones will get two and maybe 1-2 teams will see a third game. So now we see an approximate 2900 kids getting to experience the thrill of postseason.

 

So to summarize at this point, LESS than 1% of the football players in the state will see a state trophy that they would not have seen beforehand while over 2900 kids get to experience postseason play. And those are bad things??????

 

And to add to my point, beyond the kids. What about all the enthusiasm and spirit generated by playing in postseason and deeper into the postseason for the schools and communities?

 

So, LESS THAN 1% of HS athletes will hoist a state title while approximately 2900 HS football players and untold number of fans will get to experience postseason play.

 

And that's a bad thing??????????????

[ladiesbballcoach]

As far as the level playing field, I would say it comes from everyday life.

 

We have racial quotas in sports and other fields, example being MLB and interviewing minorities for coaching position.

We have situations where tests scores standards are lowered for certain jobs for certain groups of people.

We have loans for small businesses that large businesses can't obtain.

We have loans for certain races/genders that other races/genders are not eligible for.

We have laws that are put into place to protect small businesses against large businesses.

We have lesson plans/assignments in schools that MUST be modified and in some cases the expectations lessen for certain students.

We have a salary cap in the NBA/NFL to not allow large market teams to have the advantage that we see in MLB.

We have loans that can be had if you start a business in a part of a large city that cannot be had if you wanted to start the same business in a rural setting.

I went to a college where if your family made X amount of $$$$, you couldn't attend because your family MADE too much money. Berea College.

 

For the most part, I don't have a problem with these and understand and support the need for them but they are all designed to "level the playing field."

[Covercorner]

As far as the level playing field, I would say it comes from everyday life.

 

We have racial quotas in sports and other fields, example being MLB and interviewing minorities for coaching position.

We have situations where tests scores standards are lowered for certain jobs for certain groups of people.

We have loans for small businesses that large businesses can't obtain.

We have loans for certain races/genders that other races/genders are not eligible for.

We have laws that are put into place to protect small businesses against large businesses.

We have lesson plans/assignments in schools that MUST be modified and in some cases the expectations lessen for certain students.

We have a salary cap in the NBA/NFL to not allow large market teams to have the advantage that we see in MLB.

We have loans that can be had if you start a business in a part of a large city that cannot be had if you wanted to start the same business in a rural setting.

I went to a college where if your family made X amount of $$$$, you couldn't attend because your family MADE too much money. Berea College.

 

For the most part, I don't have a problem with these and understand and support the need for them but they are all designed to "level the playing field."

Yes they are designed to level the playing field, and as time has gone on, I see and agree more and more as you have said, that the greatest discrepancies lie between rural and urban schools.

 

One thing that I have to teach in government class to kids is that usually when programs/initiaitves are put in, there is supposed to be(we are talking about the government) a legitimate government goal at the root of the program. The question is going to be: is seperation or other ideas, a realistic, legitimate government goal?

[HHSDad]

Where did this idea of a level playing field in high school sports come from?

From the same people who believe that every participant should get a trophy, you shouldn't fail kids because it hurts their self-esteem and men should get in touch with their feminine sid.

[ladiesbballcoach]

From the same people who believe that every participant should get a trophy, you shouldn't fail kids because it hurts their self-esteem and men should get in touch with their feminine sid.

Sid WHO?????

[DELTA Rotary]

I see and agree more and more as you have said, that the greatest discrepancies lie between rural and urban schools.

 

 

I totally agree that this is the problem. I also think this is why seperating public/privates wont help to level the playing field at all. There are still very wealthy public schools with huge feeder programs that rural schools dont have i.e. Male.

[Hasbeen]

From the same people who believe that every participant should get a trophy, you shouldn't fail kids because it hurts their self-esteem and men should get in touch with their feminine sid.

 

 

 

Disagree totally and completely. It has nothing to do with self esteem and making "everyone a winner", but has everything to do with giving everyone a fighting chance. I had sworn off this forum but I'm going to take one more shot.

 

To keep the Guru happy in my little scenario, lets assume there is no such thing as school boundaries or self imposed district limits. A large private school in Louisville has a population base of 693,604 to draw from without ever leaving the county. Now lets take South Laurel (also a 4A school) for example. Give them Laurel, Knox, Rockcastle, Clay, Whitley, Lee, Jackson, Harlan, Pulaski, and Perry for a total of ten neighboring counties, total population according to the 2000 census of 301,733. Heck, just for fun let's throw in Fayette. Now we have a total of 562,245, still more than 130k short.

http://www.louisville.edu/~easchn01/kentucky/kypop1.html

 

You know what? I bet I could field a heck of team picking the best from those eleven counties.

 

My final question to those that oppose multiple classes and state championships is this: What do you care if some team out in the state gets a trophy? Does your ego suffer that much if another team gets to celebrate for being the best of their peers? The largest class is generally recognized as the best team so why should this be so offensive?

 

I'm beginning to think the only solution is to take sports out of the high schools and put it under the control of the AAU. Then my all-star team can play your all-star team without restrictions.

 

One more point. This "we work harder than everyone else" is bull also. I can find a few hundred kids out in the hot August sun that will strongly disagree with you.

[JOETOMCAT74]

But what about having more kids involved. Another 58 schools will see postseason action that will not this year. Most will be one additional game. Some lucky ones will get two and maybe 1-2 teams will see a third game. So now we see an approximate 2900 kids getting to experience the thrill of postseason.

How much of a thrill is it for a kid to be the witness of a 50 - 00 game if you could call some of the first round games, GAMES! It is ridiculous to think that this is a good idea by any stretch! All they are doing is giving false hope to a school that could have won 2 or 3 games or possibly none and still be in the playoffs! It is my opinion much sweeter to earn the right to make the post season not get there because somebody placed you there! All this will do is take the pride factor out of making the playoffs!:fight:

[Xman85]

Disagree totally and completely. It has nothing to do with self esteem and making "everyone a winner", but has everything to do with giving everyone a fighting chance. I had sworn off this forum but I'm going to take one more shot.

 

To keep the Guru happy in my little scenario, lets assume there is no such thing as school boundaries or self imposed district limits. A large private school in Louisville has a population base of 693,604 to draw from without ever leaving the county. Now lets take South Laurel (also a 4A school) for example. Give them Laurel, Knox, Rockcastle, Clay, Whitley, Lee, Jackson, Harlan, Pulaski, and Perry for a total of ten neighboring counties, total population according to the 2000 census of 301,733. Heck, just for fun let's throw in Fayette. Now we have a total of 562,245, still more than 130k short.

http://www.louisville.edu/~easchn01/kentucky/kypop1.html

 

You know what? I bet I could field a heck of team picking the best from those eleven counties.

 

My final question to those that oppose multiple classes and state championships is this: What do you care if some team out in the state gets a trophy? Does your ego suffer that much if another team gets to celebrate for being the best of their peers? The largest class is generally recognized as the best team so why should this be so offensive?

 

I'm beginning to think the only solution is to take sports out of the high schools and put it under the control of the AAU. Then my all-star team can play your all-star team without restrictions.

 

One more point. This "we work harder than everyone else" is bull also. I can find a few hundred kids out in the hot August sun that will strongly disagree with you.

 

I see what you are trying to get at ....but ...if you take Louisville with its large population,,,,,,you also have several more schools competing for those kids...it's not like there is one school getting all these kids....

[leatherneck]

I see what you are trying to get at ....but ...if you take Louisville with its large population,,,,,,you also have several more schools competing for those kids...it's not like there is one school getting all these kids....

 

 

You point out the flaw to HasBeen's thinking. But there are not several more schools competing for those kids, there are probably 15 schools competing for those kids in Jeff County, thus diluting the talent level considerably. Its only when 10 of those schools fail to commit to building strong athletic programs that the other 5 end up getting a disproportionate amount of talent. The rural schools should be upset, not with the 5 schools that make the committment to athletics that causes them to attract a disproportionate amount of talent, but rather the 10 schools that fail to do so, causing the players to want to attend the 5 schools that do.

 

Admittedly not all schools place the same committment to winning football that other schools do. I'll take Scott as an example. In my opinion, and from my observations, Scott simply does not place the emphasis on football that other schools in N. Ky do. But they do place an emphasis on other sports. I believe their soccer team just beat CovCath in soccer. I think there is a lot more emphasis on winning in soccer at Scott than in football and such has been the case for quite some time. Is that wrong?

 

Of course not. Not at all. But when they lose in football, they shouldn't (and haven't from what I recall) complained about the field not being level. Their school, their kids and the kids parents simply are more interested in winning at soccer than at football. Thus, the soccer program is solid, the football program is not. And that's not uncommon. Its extremely rare to see a high school be extremely successful in multiple major athletic programs and when it does occur, its not for a long period. Trinity, while their basketball program has recently approved, used to be terrible in basketball. X, do they have a basketball program (just kidding folks). Male, ?. Highlands, while we've had some decent success in hoops, no where near what we've accomplished in football. Beechwood, same. I could go on and on with the football powerhouses. Its simply the fact that schools for whatever reason have made a stronger committment to one major sport over others and sport has been the one that has prospered. With football overtaking basketball in popularity in high school sports, those schools that favored basketball over football are now way behind the power curve in football.

 

As stated above, in a lot of rural schools there has been much more emphasis on basketball than football for decades. As a result, while their basketball teams have been very good, their football has been bad. In N. Ky, there has been much more emphasis placed on football for decades than on basketball. Our football is good, our basketball is bad. In spite of the urban concentration of talent argument (which should logically apply to basketball just as much as football should it not?), N. Ky has won one state championship in basketball since the KHSAA started the Sweet 16. Yet you rarely (I've never) heard anyone from N. Ky complain about the basketball field not being level. And it's not because people in N. Ky are better than people in the rural counties, it's simply because all in all at most programs in N. Ky, basketball is simply not as important as football is. If basketball was ever to overtake football in popularity in N. Ky, you probably would hear the same uproar about the unlevel playing field. And my response to that uproar would be the same response that I am giving to the rural schools that now have football over taking basketball in popularity: you are decades behind in committment and development of your program and are being unrealistic thinking you can have the same level of program as those schools that have made a committment to that program for 40-50 years.

 

The problem with the rural vs urban argument is that it simply fails to recognize that while football has become the more popular sport in a lot of rural counties in just the last 5-10 years, they seem to think that they should be able to beat those schools that have made a superior committment to football for 40-50 years. And while I appreciate their desire to win state championships in football now, they just are not being realistic. Many rural programs do not yet have the multi generational program support, the alumni, the tradition of winning and the youth football programs necessary to overtake those programs that do and have had those factors in place for 40-50 years. Those factors more than anything else are what causes the playing field to be unlevel and nothing other than time and unwaivering committment to those factors will ever level the playing field in my opinion.

 

I seem to recall a phrase "Rome was not built in a day" that was taught to me by my parents to teach me that long periods of hard work were often necessary to accomplish one's goals. "Instant gratification" was not even around when I grew up, yet it is alive and well today unfortunately and seems to be the more prevalent message we are teaching our kids by our actions. To me, those rural programs that just in the last 5-10 years became truly interested in being a contender for football championships have forgotten the Rome phrase and are sending the instant gratification message to our children. If those who complain about the current situation and spend the energy trying to artificially level the playing field realized the real solutions to the problem and expended that same energy to work on the factors I listed above, the playing field would probably be leveled more quickly and certainly more honestly and with more integrity to the sport of football. And even more importantly would be teaching our children the right message. "You might not win a state championship in football, your children even might not win a state championship in football, but if you start making the committment now and if you continue that committment to your school's football program after you graduate and your children to the same, your grandchildren will win a state championship in football, and such is much more noble than having the KHSAA make it easy for you to win a state championship be penalizing those programs that have made the necessary level of committment for multiple decades".

 

Admittedly it won't be easy. Most rural football programs are very far behind those programs that have made that high level of committment for 40-50 years. The best of those programs that have made that committment for 40-50 years are not going to neglect football at all. They will continue to do what it takes, thus making it harder for the "Johnny come latelies", if you will, to catch up. But isn't it more noble for the Johnnies to level the field by persevering and working hard for the next 20 years than having the govt (the KHSAA) artificially level the field for them in one year? Shouldn't we be teaching the kids its not about instant gratification, rather its more about Rome? And that's not only true in high school football, its true in life. Don' succomb to the instant gratification about getting a job right out of high school so you can buy a car and get married, go to a technical school, go to college, go to med school or law school or get your MBA. Struggle for years to come, forget about that car or getting married for a while, and if you do so, the Rome that you will build will be much stronger and much rewarding to you than the results of the instant gratification route you could have taken.

 

Diatribe over and stepping down off the soap box.

[ladiesbballcoach]

How much of a thrill is it for a kid to be the witness of a 50 - 00 game if you could call some of the first round games, GAMES! It is ridiculous to think that this is a good idea by any stretch! All they are doing is giving false hope to a school that could have won 2 or 3 games or possibly none and still be in the playoffs! It is my opinion much sweeter to earn the right to make the post season not get there because somebody placed you there! All this will do is take the pride factor out of making the playoffs!:fight:

So you are of the opinion then that the basketball playoffs need to be changed then. Because EVERY SINGLE team in the state makes it in and results in 1st round blowouts and 1st round major upsets.

[All Tell]

Not every team should make the playoffs. In basketball for instance those that choose not to play regular season district games should not get in.