Does Lebron James have to......

[mexitucky]

My argument for Lebron is based on the premise that he will be the GOAT one day and if he manages to win the title this year he takes a huge step closer to being the GOAT.

 

You will and do have people on your side.

 

I wanted to throw some stat lines at you. Jordan averaged 41 PPG in the 93 finals. FORTY-ONE. He went 32/8/11 in the '91 Finals. For LeBron to be considered better than Jordan by me, he will have to improve his Finals performances. I won't count the first one b/c he was too young and the Spurs just too good. I will only count with the Heat:

'11 17.8 PPG

'12 27/8/6

'13 28.6/10/7

'14 25.3/11/7

 

Great stat lines, but not GOAT great. I don't know if anything that he does in the future can truly catch up w/out averaging a couple of triple doubles for a couple of Finals. That '11 series is just an albatross on his neck.

[bugatti]

You will and do have people on your side.

 

I wanted to throw some stat lines at you. Jordan averaged 41 PPG in the 93 finals. FORTY-ONE. He went 32/8/11 in the '91 Finals. For LeBron to be considered better than Jordan by me, he will have to improve his Finals performances. I won't count the first one b/c he was too young and the Spurs just too good. I will only count with the Heat:

'11 17.8 PPG

'12 27/8/6

'13 28.6/10/7

'14 25.3/11/7

 

Great stat lines, but not GOAT great. I don't know if anything that he does in the future can truly catch up w/out averaging a couple of triple doubles for a couple of Finals. That '11 series is just an albatross on his neck.

As I have said, 2011 is about a huge of a demerit as one can attain for a player of his caliber. 2012 he did his thing and the Heat rolled. 2013 was odd because he had some bad moments, including an unraveling in the final minutes of game 6 (3 turnovers) before Ray Allen came to the rescue of his legacy. I remember discussions through that series as to who would be the MVP until the last two games where he sealed the deal. Last season there was nothing going to stop the Spurs. They called out the Heat from Day 1, got them, and pummeled them by 14.5 ppg. A demerit, but not on the level of 2011.

[uk#1fan]

Win 7 titles to be considered better than Your Royal Airness, Michael Jordan?

 

 

I say no. I say Lebron James is the best player to ever play the game of basketball. Cue the MJ fanboys who put the LilBTheBasedGod curse on me.

 

Jordan is the best, was the best and will always be the best! Jordan retired and came back still won some championships!

[ggclfan]

You will and do have people on your side.

 

I wanted to throw some stat lines at you. Jordan averaged 41 PPG in the 93 finals. FORTY-ONE. He went 32/8/11 in the '91 Finals. For LeBron to be considered better than Jordan by me, he will have to improve his Finals performances. I won't count the first one b/c he was too young and the Spurs just too good. I will only count with the Heat:

'11 17.8 PPG

'12 27/8/6

'13 28.6/10/7

'14 25.3/11/7

 

Great stat lines, but not GOAT great. I don't know if anything that he does in the future can truly catch up w/out averaging a couple of triple doubles for a couple of Finals. That '11 series is just an albatross on his neck.

 

Love this post...while I love Lebron, I think some people actually forget how unbelievable MJ was at times. He and Tiger are the most dominant sports figures in my lifetime - Gretzky is right there too but I am only a casual hockey guy.

[Jumper_Dad]

Are the Finals the only thing that matters?

 

I think you have to look at the entirety of their careers not just NBA Finals Performance. Jordan played against an over the hill Lakers team, one shot finalist Blazers and Suns in his first run and then the Sonics and Jazz (2)...none of those teams would be thought of as all-time challengers for Jordan.

 

I just say this to say you have to look at everything not just the NBA Finals...this is still a team sport and at lot of things have to fall in place for even the great ones to make, let alone win the finals.

 

All of that said, if I needed one basket to save my life I'm tossing the ball to MJ. I've went back and forth on this some, but going back and watching some video of MJ at his best I remember exactly just how great he was.

[uk#1fan]

Are the Finals the only thing that matters?

 

I think you have to look at the entirety of their careers not just NBA Finals Performance. Jordan played against an over the hill Lakers team, one shot finalist Blazers and Suns in his first run and then the Sonics and Jazz (2)...none of those teams would be thought of as all-time challengers for Jordan.

 

I just say this to say you have to look at everything not just the NBA Finals...this is still a team sport and at lot of things have to fall in place for even the great ones to make, let alone win the finals.

 

All of that said, if I needed one basket to save my life I'm tossing the ball to MJ. I've went back and forth on this some, but going back and watching some video of MJ at his best I remember exactly just how great he was.

 

Jordon dominated Orlando, Knicks, Hornets all those teams where tough.

[Jumper_Dad]

Jordon dominated Orlando, Knicks, Hornets all those teams where tough.

I understand that, but all of the discussion was just about performance in the NBA Finals and I was pointing out that it should be about more than just the Finals.

[Cats3x]

Are the Finals the only thing that matters?

 

I think you have to look at the entirety of their careers not just NBA Finals Performance. Jordan played against an over the hill Lakers team, one shot finalist Blazers and Suns in his first run and then the Sonics and Jazz (2)...none of those teams would be thought of as all-time challengers for Jordan.

 

I just say this to say you have to look at everything not just the NBA Finals...this is still a team sport and at lot of things have to fall in place for even the great ones to make, let alone win the finals.

 

All of that said, if I needed one basket to save my life I'm tossing the ball to MJ. I've went back and forth on this some, but going back and watching some video of MJ at his best I remember exactly just how great he was.

True. Like it or not, LeBron has likely faced better finals competition. The three times James played the Spurs were likely the best opponent of either MJ or LBJs careers. I dare say that no team of the 90s outside of Jordan's Bulls would have beat San Antonio in either of the seasons they won the title against LeBron. Last years team would have held their own against all but the best of the NBA champions of the last 25-30 years. I don't think they were the Jordan's Bulls, Showtime, Larry's Celtics, or the Shaq/Kobe Lakers but they might be right after them.

[mexitucky]

I understand that, but all of the discussion was just about performance in the NBA Finals and I was pointing out that it should be about more than just the Finals.

 

What is the measuring stick in a debate for GOAT? It has to be clutch performances. In a debate like this in bball, especially bball where 1 player can take over down the stretch as opposed to the other sports, how a player performs in championship moments defines their legacy.

[gametime]

What is the measuring stick in a debate for GOAT? It has to be clutch performances. In a debate like this in bball, especially bball where 1 player can take over down the stretch as opposed to the other sports, how a player performs in championship moments defines their legacy.

 

Are we determining best legacy of all time or best player of all time? Two totally different things...

[mexitucky]

Are we determining best legacy of all time or best player of all time? Two totally different things...

 

Good point. This is about best player. So, which player played the best in the crunch. Has to be Jordan. And...this isn't a hate thing on the King. He is my #1 SF of all time and I am a die hard Larry Legend fan.

[gametime]

DeCourcy drops the mic...

 

LeBron James ends the debate: He's the best basketball player ever | NBA | Sporting News

[mexitucky]

DeCourcy drops the mic...

 

LeBron James ends the debate: He's the best basketball player ever | NBA | Sporting News

 

That is one man's opinion. He has a ton of good ones, but I don't buy this one. DeCourcy is biased when it comes to LeBron. We've already argued the counter point to a lot of this.

 

Paragraph 8. That point is flawed. Nobody knows how many Finals in a row the Bulls make if Jordan doesn't retire. Additionally, allow players in the 60s, 70s, and 80s move freely between teams. Finally, let's TOTALLY forget that James is playing with another former pick #1 in Irving and Olympic teammate Kevin Love joined this year. Let's act like DWayde hadn't already won in 2005. Let's forget that Chris Bosh was an Olympic Team member and brought in in Free Agency to specifically spread the floor. He was the Single Driving Force, however, the wheels on those vehicles were very good.

 

Paragraph 12. Again, there is no way to know this. What if Jordan signs with the Knicks in Free Agency after '93? You are telling me that he doesn't "take your'u and beat his'un?" Come one. It wasn't like LeBron went to the Heat and they had nobody, and it isn't like the Cavs only brought in LeBron and played in the West.

 

Paragraph 14. His argument here is that he was single handily responsible for the 42 game swing in wins and losses, b/c the cast was SIMILAR. He makes a valid point, but acts like everything just passed into the next season in a vacuum, and doesn't present any other contributing factors. In 2008-2009, the year that he quotes, the 2nd best team in his division were the Bulls at 41-41. The year after he left, the Bulls went 62-20, and the EAST as a whole had a pretty good year considering their last 15. That played a huge part as well. Additionally, when Jordan left in '93, the Bulls still had Pippen, brought in Kukoc, had All stars and weren't all that bad of a team. Let's not forget their coach. That being said, everyone forgets what happened in '98 to the Bulls and how long it took for them to get back.

 

Paragraph 19. What does Larry Hughes scoring average in the 2007 Finals have to do w/ this argument? They were swept. It just shows how weak overall the East was compared to the West. The Cavs wouldn't have gotten out of the second round in the West, if even that far. We already know that he led a bad team to the Finals in a bad conference and he had a bad series. Not exactly sure why he adds this in there. It was not a series that leads credence to knighting the King as GOAT.

 

Paragraph 20. Yeah, the only reason that J.R. Smith and Shumpert improved was b/c of LeBron. Had nothing to do with getting out of the toxic ooze that surrounds MSG. Nothing to do with not playing with Anthony, or the distraction of the New York lifestyle (see Smith, J.R.). Purely b/c they got to share court time with LeBron that they have had a good playoff run. Smith never played in an All Star game prior to coming.

 

This wasn't DeCoursy's greatest argument. Really it was an opinion piece that did nothing to squelch debate. It only opened it up for us Jordanites who have very valid counter points to what he throws out.

Edited June 3, 2015 by mexitucky

[LIPTON BASH]

DeCourcy is biased when it comes to LeBron. That is one man's opinion. He has a ton of good ones, but I don't buy this one. We've already argued the counter point to a lot of this.

 

Paragraph 8. That point is flawed. Nobody knows how many Finals in a row the Bulls make if Jordan doesn't retire. Additionally, allow players in the 60s, 70s, and 80s move freely between teams. Finally, let's TOTALLY forget that James is playing with another former pick in Irving and Olympic teammate Kevin Love joined this year. Let's act like DWayde hadn't already won in 2005. Let's forget that Chris Bosh was an Olympic Team member and brought in in Free Agency to specifically spread the floor. He was the Single Driving Force, however, the wheels on those vehicles were very good.

 

Paragraph 12. Again, there is no way to know this. What if Jordan signs with the Knicks in Free Agency after '93? You are telling me that he doesn't "take your'u and beat his'un?" Come one. It wasn't like LeBron went to the Heat and they had nobody, and it isn't like the Cavs only brought in LeBron and played in the West.

 

Paragraph 14. His argument here is that he was single handily responsible for the 42 game swing in wins and losses, b/c the cast was SIMILAR. He makes a valid point, but acts like everything just passed into the next season in a vacuum, and doesn't present any other contributing factors. In 2008-2009, the year that he quotes, the 2nd best team in his division were the Bulls at 41-41. The year after he left, the Bulls went 62-20, and the EAST as a whole had a pretty good year considering their last 15. That played a huge part as well. Additionally, when Jordan left in '93, the Bulls still had Pippen, brought in Kukoc, had All stars and weren't all that bad of a team. Let's not forget their coach. That being said, everyone forgets what happened in '98 to the Bulls and how long it took for them to get back.

 

Paragraph 19. What does Larry Hughes scoring average in the 2007 Finals have to do w/ this argument? They were swept. It just shows how weak overall the East was compared to the West. The Cavs wouldn't have gotten out of the second round in the West, if even that far. We already know that he led a bad team to the Finals in a bad conference and he had a bad series. Not exactly sure why he adds this in there. It was not a series that leads credence to knighting the King as GOAT.

 

Paragraph 20. Yeah, the only reason that J.R. Smith and Shumpert improved was b/c of LeBron. Had nothing to do with getting out of the toxic ooze that surrounds MSG. Nothing to do with not playing with Anthony, or the distraction of the New York lifestyle (see Smith, J.R.). Purely b/c they got to share court time with LeBron that they have had a good playoff run. Smith never played in an All Star game prior to coming.

 

This wasn't DeCoursy's greatest argument. Really it was an opinion piece that did nothing to squelch debate. It only opened it up for us Jordanites who have very valid counter points to what he throws out.

 

And Mex shatters the Decoursey article.

[LIPTON BASH]

Also for the record I quit taking Decoursey's opinion on the NBA serious when he said Rodman shouldn't be in the HOF.