God's Plan

[Birdsfan]

Your analogy isn't even close to the same. It might be the same if everyone were paralyzed and stories of what it was like to have working legs were passed down for 2000 years and everyone took it on faith the stories were true. As your analogy stands the paralyzed person can see others walk, wiggle their toes, can most likely feel touch their own face so it's not a stretch to believe what your being told is true.

I think the analogy is a good one. I assumed you might bring up the fact that we can see others, today, who are not paralyzed, and do not have to rely on credible witnesses from the past. But to a paralyzed person, they cannot "see" sensation. They cannot vicariously experience something that is beyond there frame of reference. All they can rely on is what others tell them of the experience. We can feel and touch the acts and creation of God as easily as our face; so that is not a stretch either.

 

For a person who is open to faith, it isn't just a matter of blind faith in some ancient tale. It's a personal feeling that comes from that place inside where hope and love are kept. It's suggested in the things of science, and reasoned by an acknowledgement of the limits of what's knowable. In other words, the perfect arrangements and providential events that have made it possible for us to exist, suggest divine creation. And just beyond the limit of what science knows of the universe and of time, there must be something else. If everything started with a "bang," someone had to pull the trigger.

 

Using Peter and Paul as examples is not any different then saying because the bible says so. It's still stories from thousands of years ago. Peter and Paul are no more or less credible then anyone else I've never met. The cemetary is full of people that gave their life for what they believe in, that doesn't mean any of it is correct or true. 19 individuals gave their life on Sept 11th, 2001 for something they believed in, does that mean they were right?

So we should just throw out the criminal justice system? We condemn people to die based on the words of credible witnesses. Peter and Paul did not die for some "belief" or false doctrine. They died for the Christ they saw perform miracles, teach the multitudes and live a holy life. There's nothing mysterious about it. At some point you have to decide whom, and what, to believe. Edited June 13, 2011 by Birdsfan

[Alabama Larry]

WOODS. I'll ask him when I get to see him face to face. 2nd Timothy 3:14:17

[Randy Parker]

The cemetary is full of people that gave their life for what they believe in, that doesn't mean any of it is correct or true. 19 individuals gave their life on Sept 11th, 2001 for something they believed in, does that mean they were right?

 

But here's where that thinking falls short. As you said, there have been numerous individuals who have been martyred, or sacrificed their lives for a deeply held belief--even if that belief turned out to be untrue; or a belief that is considered untrue (such as the virgins awaiting the terrorists of September 11th).

 

With the followers of Jesus--namely the apostles--we have men who not only lost their lives because of their beliefs/faith, but they lost life in the most brutal of ways (skinned to death, crucified on x-shaped cross or upside down, beheading, etc.). And it's secular historians, for the most part, who inform us how Peter or Paul or Thomas or Andrew died.

 

But in these instances, these men either died for something they knew to be the truth or they knew to be a fraud. It wasn't a belief as in a "wishful thinking" belief. They either knew Jesus had risen from the dead or they knew that was a total man-made hoax. I personally have a hard time believing these men died for something they knew to be fabricated or untrue.

 

As you've pointed out, there have been peope in the past who have died for things they believed were true, but were not. Seldom do people die for things that they know to be fraudulent.

[Jim Schue]

I don't want to speak for Jim but what I think he is getting at is if your good fortune is God's doing then what did the poor broke jobless starving family do to deserve their misfortune?

 

Exactly. I just can't go along with the idea that someone is "blessed" just because they won the birth lottery and landed in a well-to-do neighborhood as opposed to the 'hood. Yet, those folks who won the birth lottery love to talk about how "blessed" they are, when they really just got lucky.

[Birdsfan]

Exactly. I just can't go along with the idea that someone is "blessed" just because they won the birth lottery and landed in a well-to-do neighborhood as opposed to the 'hood. Yet, those folks who won the birth lottery love to talk about how "blessed" they are, when they really just got lucky.

We all have different blessings. Everything we have is a blessing; so those fortunate folks would be completely accurate in saying they are blessed. Those who may be less wealthy might be blessed in other ways...ways that aren't so easy to see. There's no guarantee of equality in all things in this world. We're each given a chosen lot. It's up to us to appreciate, and use, what we have, and not to covet what our neighbor has.

[Alabama Larry]

No man has seen God, we feel the wind and can see what it does but we know its there. We see God as Christians the same way. Faith in our beliefs and the written word. The Bible wasn't written to entertain us.

 

A poor person can be blessed for eternity, Luke 16:19 Birdsfan, so very well stated. I read it several times.

[Jim Schue]

We all have different blessings. Everything we have is a blessing; so those fortunate folks would be completely accurate in saying they are blessed. Those who may be less wealthy might be blessed in other ways...ways that aren't so easy to see. There's no guarantee of equality in all things in this world. We're each given a chosen lot. It's up to us to appreciate, and use, what we have, and not to covet what our neighbor has.

 

Where does the "blessing" come into play when someone loses the birth lottery and has to steal (or worse) to survive and feed their family? Is God going to ignore his commandments when that person checks in at the Pearly Gates, since it was God who chose to delay their "blessing" and put them in a no-win situation on Earth?

[Randy Parker]

Jim, I would add that in the Old Testament the word "blessing" & "birthright" were often interchangeable. This is particularly evident in the story of Jacob & Esau.

[Jim Schue]

Jim, I would add that in the Old Testament the word "blessing" & "birthright" were often interchangeable. This is particularly evident in the story of Jacob & Esau.

 

That is irrelevant to my argument. I'm talking about the way those who won the birth lottery use it to explain their good fortune in life (i.e., not being born into crushing poverty). That's why I've been consistently putting "blessing" in quotations.

[Birdsfan]

Where does the "blessing" come into play when someone loses the birth lottery and has to steal (or worse) to survive and feed their family? Is God going to ignore his commandments when that person checks in at the Pearly Gates, since it was God who chose to delay their "blessing" and put them in a no-win situation on Earth?

There is no "birth lottery." To believe such a thing would imply that chance plays a role: It doesn't. As for stealing to feed one's family, I am not going to presume to know the judgement of God. He will judge each person as he sees fit -- knowing what is truly in their heart at every moment. But I will suggest that, often, when we "think" we have no choice, the truth is that we have no choices that we find palatable.

[Jim Schue]

There is no "birth lottery." To believe such a thing would imply that chance plays a role: It doesn't. As for stealing to feed one's family, I am not going to presume to know the judgement of God. He will judge each person as he sees fit -- knowing what is truly in their heart at every moment. But I will suggest that, often, when we "think" we have no choice, the truth is that we have no choices that we find palatable.

 

It's either the birth lottery, or God is mean-spirited. When you consider how the odds of you being murdered or ending up in jail increases exponentially if you are born into poverty, it's one or the other. It's easy to make good choices if you're born into a nurturing, loving situation where you don't have to worry about where your next meal comes from.

 

I mean, really, how fair would it be for God to condemn someone to Hell for breaking the 8th Commandment when He's the one who put that person in the no-win situation to begin with?

[Habib]

There is no "birth lottery." To believe such a thing would imply that chance plays a role: It doesn't.

 

So you're saying that our lives are predetermined? I feel like that gives credence to Jim's argument.

[Birdsfan]

It's either the birth lottery, or God is mean-spirited. When you consider how the odds of you being murdered or ending up in jail increases exponentially if you are born into poverty, it's one or the other. It's easy to make good choices if you're born into a nurturing, loving situation where you don't have to worry about where your next meal comes from.

 

I mean, really, how fair would it be for God to condemn someone to Hell for breaking the 8th Commandment when He's the one who put that person in the no-win situation to begin with?

No. It's not one or the other -- it's neither. There are no "no-win" situations when it comes to a person's soul. "Good choices" can be made by anyone. Your personal circumstances have nothing to do with it. And again, I will not (as no one should) attempt to place myself in God's role as ultimate judge. You're telling us how you think God should judge a particular person. Well, God's ways are not our ways, and his wisdom is far beyond our comprehension.

[Randy Parker]

That is irrelevant to my argument. I'm talking about the way those who won the birth lottery use it to explain their good fortune in life (i.e., not being born into crushing poverty). That's why I've been consistently putting "blessing" in quotations.

 

Maybe I'm not understanding you completely, but what I'm saying is that Jacob was blessed because of his birthright. In other words, his blessing was not accidental. Similarly, but on the other end of the spectrum, Jesus was purposefully born into poverty.

[Birdsfan]

So you're saying that our lives are predetermined? I feel like that gives credence to Jim's argument.

No, we determine our own destiny, as it pertains to our ultimate end.