God's Plan

[5wide]

The abortion thread, particularly the direction Habib and Birdsfan were headed, got me thinking.

 

Was God's original plan foiled by the serpent in the Garden of Eden?

[Randy Parker]

The abortion thread, particularly the direction Habib and Birdsfan were headed, got me thinking.

 

Was God's original plan foiled by the serpent in the Garden of Eden?

 

Being the know-it-all that I often think I am (:lol:), I have answers to most every question that people throw out concerning Christianity, the Bible, etc. But I will admit that the one question I would ask God, if I had the opportunity, would be this: If you have foreknowledge (and I believe you do), why would you create this world if so many people would reject you, your plan, & your Son?

 

The only answer I've ever come up with is actually a quote from Augustine. He once said, "Once we fully understand God, He stops being God."

 

So, in short, 5wide, my answer to your question is this: I don't know.

[Alabama Larry]

Isaiah 55:8/9. We cannot question God. Its like a new born baby asking questions to its parents.

 

We are not robots, Eve made a choice, Adam did to, and then blamed God for what had happened, and then he blamed Eve.

 

So, anyway I have had a great life and I'm so glad I got to live it despite those two in Eden...

[5wide]

Being the know-it-all that I often think I am (:lol:), I have answers to most every question that people throw out concerning Christianity, the Bible, etc. But I will admit that the one question I would ask God, if I had the opportunity, would be this: If you have foreknowledge (and I believe you do), why would you create this world if so many people would reject you, your plan, & your Son?

 

The only answer I've ever come up with is actually a quote from Augustine. He once said, "Once we fully understand God, He stops being God."

 

So, in short, 5wide, my answer to your question is this: I don't know.

 

I like the quote.

 

I believe that this is God's plan. I don't think his plan was foiled. There are several verses that speak of being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and another phrase that says the lamb slain from the foundation of the world that leads me to the conclusion that God knew what would happen and this was/is the plan. Just my opinion...I find it to be an interesting question.

[woodsrider]

If he knew/knows everything that happened/going happen what is the point?

[Alabama Larry]

Woods, are you living a life? You have free will, God just happens to know your choices. Romans 8:28/29

[5wide]

If he knew/knows everything that happened/going happen what is the point?

 

I don't know. How do you feel it affects your life personally if God knows everything that has or will ever happen?

[Randy Parker]

If he knew/knows everything that happened/going happen what is the point?

 

God's foreknowledge, in my opinion, means just that--He knows. It doesn't always mean He causes what He knows is going to happen to happen (probably ought to read that a few times...sorry).

[Randy Parker]

I believe that this is God's plan. I don't think his plan was foiled. There are several verses that speak of being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and another phrase that says the lamb slain from the foundation of the world that leads me to the conclusion that God knew what would happen and this was/is the plan. Just my opinion...I find it to be an interesting question.

 

And if I were forced to answer the question to the best of my ability, this would pretty much be my answer. It's just that I have a hard time understanding why He would create the world & its inhabitants if He knew from the time of creation that it would go so wrong, so quickly, & in such catastrophic fashion.

 

There are times when I go back & re-read the final sections of the book of Job. This is one of those times. After Job had been through all that heartache & pain, he directed some pretty poignant questions toward God. Reading God's response, and the clear-cut sarcasm that is laced throughout His words, does to me what it did to Job: it puts me in my place. When Job asked God why all this was happening, God's response was essentially, "I'm God. You're not. That's that."

 

Pretty humbling.

 

And yes, your question is an interesting one; and for me, it's the most interesting one.

[woodsrider]

Woods, are you living a life? You have free will, God just happens to know your choices. Romans 8:28/29

 

I don't know. How do you feel it affects your life personally if God knows everything that has or will ever happen?

 

God's foreknowledge, in my opinion, means just that--He knows. It doesn't always mean He causes what He knows is going to happen to happen (probably ought to read that a few times...sorry).

Not what is the point in living for us, but what is the point in creating this for God? Is God so narcissistic that he had to create man so someone would worship him? Not to mention the countless pain throughout the world. What's the point in someone dying a slow painful death? If god's plan is for you to die then why not just die? I can maybe rationalize a same child being killed suddenly as God's plan but to die a slow painful death as a child, what is the point? Especially if god knows the outcome. What's the point in even having someone like that born only to kill them slowly.

[Randy Parker]

Not what is the point in living for us, but what is the point in creating this for God? Is God so narcissistic that he had to create man so someone would worship him? Not to mention the countless pain throughout the world. What's the point in someone dying a slow painful death? If god's plan is for you to die then why not just die? I can maybe rationalize a same child being killed suddenly as God's plan but to die a slow painful death as a child, what is the point? Especially if god knows the outcome. What's the point in even having someone like that born only to kill them slowly.

 

Perhaps the same reason my wife & I chose to have a child. It's not that we're narcissistic, but that we desire that parent-to-child relationship & all the blessings it can bring. Sometimes, such a relationship carries with it much heartache. Other times, such a relationship carries with it wonderful joys. It's certainly a risk (hence, my own questions on the situation), but the reward can far outweigh the risk too.

 

Again, I'm not responding here as though I have all the answers. I'm searching on this one just as much as you are. Just trying to present some different angles & thoughts that have previously been presented to me on the subject.

[Hatz]

And if I were forced to answer the question to the best of my ability, this would pretty much be my answer. It's just that I have a hard time understanding why He would create the world & its inhabitants if He knew from the time of creation that it would go so wrong, so quickly, & in such catastrophic fashion.

 

There are times when I go back & re-read the final sections of the book of Job. This is one of those times. After Job had been through all that heartache & pain, he directed some pretty poignant questions toward God. Reading God's response, and the clear-cut sarcasm that is laced throughout His words, does to me what it did to Job: it puts me in my place. When Job asked God why all this was happening, God's response was essentially, "I'm God. You're not. That's that."

 

Pretty humbling.

 

And yes, your question is an interesting one; and for me, it's the most interesting one.

 

That is a good summation of God's answer to Job, however God isn't chastising Job for asking the tough questions, he's just saying, "You can't handle it Job. It's too big for you." What God does for Job is this: He comes. He is present and in the end that is all Job needs to get by.

 

God's real condemnation in the story of Job is for the "so called" friends who tried to play apologist and excuse maker for God. God basically tells them that they have no right to make excuses for Him.

 

We don't like to live in "the mystery" and we are uncomfortable with what we can not define or describe. The older I get, the more living in "the mystery" becomes the only thing I can do. :thumb:

[woodsrider]

Perhaps the same reason my wife & I chose to have a child. It's not that we're narcissistic, but that we desire that parent-to-child relationship & all the blessings it can bring. Sometimes, such a relationship carries with it much heartache. Other times, such a relationship carries with it wonderful joys. It's certainly a risk (hence, my own questions on the situation), but the reward can far outweigh the risk too.

 

Again, I'm not responding here as though I have all the answers. I'm searching on this one just as much as you are. Just trying to present some different angles & thoughts that have previously been presented to me on the subject.

 

That's a pretty good analogy. Where I have trouble with it is when a couple decides to have childern it is all unknown. You hope to guide the child on the right path as you raise them but there is that uncertainy which you speak. Not only with something happening to them but with the life path they take. If you knew ahead of time your child would die a horrible and painful death at 2 years old would you still make the decision to have that child? I am not claiming to know it all either, and mostly thinking out loud to spark discussion and others thougths on it all.

[Randy Parker]

That's a pretty good analogy. Where I have trouble with it is when a couple decides to have childern it is all unknown. You hope to guide the child on the right path as you raise them but there is that uncertainy which you speak. Not only with something happening to them but with the life path they take. If you knew ahead of time your child would die a horrible and painful death at 2 years old would you still make the decision to have that child? I am not claiming to know it all either, and mostly thinking out loud to spark discussion and others thougths on it all.

 

The bolded is exactly where I most struggle with this. Your scenario (of the 2-year-old dying slowly & painfully early) would be a difficult one for me to answer. But for me, it's more difficult when I look at it from an eternal perspective (I'm speaking on the Heaven & Hell issue here). If I'm God & I know I'm going to create a race of humans, many of which will reject me & spend eternity away from me, is it worth creating them with that certain knowledge? Evidently, for Him it was & I'm grateful because I am here.

 

But put in that same position, I'm not so sure I could do it.

 

All of this is where faith comes into play for me. I don't have the answers & all the understanding, but my faith is in a God who does--even if His actions sometimes don't add up to me.

[Randy Parker]

That is a good summation of God's answer to Job, however God isn't chastising Job for asking the tough questions, he's just saying, "You can't handle it Job. It's too big for you." What God does for Job is this: He comes. He is present and in the end that is all Job needs to get by.

 

God's real condemnation in the story of Job is for the "so called" friends who tried to play apologist and excuse maker for God. God basically tells them that they have no right to make excuses for Him.

 

We don't like to live in "the mystery" and we are uncomfortable with what we can not define or describe. The older I get, the more living in "the mystery" becomes the only thing I can do. :thumb:

 

On God's response to Job, I do think there was some chastisement there, though Scripture is clear when it says Job was not sinful in any of his questioning. You make a very good point about God letting Job know that he couldn't handle it on his own.

 

Very much agree that God reserved His harshest words for Job's "pals."

 

And I wholeheartedly agree on the "mystery" comments.