God's Plan

[Habib]

Instead of asking "Why does suffering exist?" we should be asking, "How can we respond to suffering. What can we do now?" Our trust in a compassionate God allows us to move beyond questions of cause and move forward with peace and hope.

 

While I agree, I think there are others who believe that this suffering is part of God's plan, or perhaps that those not suffering are blessed. It's that strain of thought that I'm curious about.

[Randy Parker]

Suffering comes to the believer & non-believer alike. The rain, as Scripture says, falls on both the just & unjust. In Job's case, which I alluded to earlier, we see one of the most upright men in the world facing arguably the most painful trial of anyone in the world. Job, like many of us, questioned why on earth that was happening to him. Because we have a vantage point he did not, we see that it was essentially the result of a "cosmic wager"--a term one writer used to describe it. Job asked some of the same penetrating questions we've asked in this thread, and the answer he received from God was basically, "I'm God and you're not. It's not for you to know."

 

I think the Isaiah 55: 8-9 passage sums up a lot of what has been discussed here. God's way of thinking & acting is often times totally contrary to that of human beings.

[Alabama Larry]

Jim, the ant cannot worship anything except a sweet crumb on the floor. Man can worship his maker, all people are saved until they hear and reject the Gospel. Is that a true statement?

[Jim Schue]

While I agree, I think there are others who believe that this suffering is part of God's plan, or perhaps that those not suffering are blessed. It's that strain of thought that I'm curious about.

 

Thank ya. Because white folks have an alarming tendency to profess all of their good fortune as "God's blessings" while ignoring those folks down the street who are barely scratching nickels together. Guess those souls didn't do enough to be "blessed."

 

Or, maybe, they just didn't win the birth lottery. Amazing how frequently white folks choose to dodge that question.

[Jim Schue]

Jim, the ant cannot worship anything except a sweet crumb on the floor. Man can worship his maker, all people are saved until they hear and reject the Gospel. Is that a true statement?

 

More of a convenient argument, really.

[Randy Parker]

Thank ya. Because white folks have an alarming tendency to profess all of their good fortune as "God's blessings" while ignoring those folks down the street who are barely scratching nickels together. Guess those souls didn't do enough to be "blessed."

 

Or, maybe, they just didn't win the birth lottery. Amazing how frequently white folks choose to dodge that question.

 

Blessing of any kind is worthy of giving God praise. I feel blessed by God that He allowed me to be born in America, that I have a steady job/income, & a family that has enjoyed relatively good health. And I hear such gratitude for blessing from the black, the white, the oriental, the hispanic, etc. I don't see anything wrong at all with professing gratitude for those blessings, because they are. In fact, I believe it would be wrong to not express thanks for it. I don't dodge that at all. Just the opposite, I'm incredibly grateful for it.

 

Such a blessing, as you alluded to, carries with it a responsibility to bless others not as fortunate, rather than ignoring them (as many do). Many times that comes in a financial form (generosity, charity, etc.) & other times it comes in different forms (simply talking to those who are less fortunate & establishing a relationship with them).

 

Again Job serves as a tremendous example that blessing is more than financial or socio-economic. After losing just about everything, Job continued to praise God. Jesus' Sermon on the Mount also informs us that blessing isnt always necessarily what we believe it to be.

[woodsrider]

Blessing of any kind is worthy of giving God praise. I feel blessed by God that He allowed me to be born in America, that I have a steady job/income, & a family that has enjoyed relatively good health. And I hear such gratitude for blessing from the black, the white, the oriental, the hispanic, etc. I don't see anything wrong at all with professing gratitude for those blessings, because they are. In fact, I believe it would be wrong to not express thanks for it. I don't dodge that at all. Just the opposite, I'm incredibly grateful for it.

 

Such a blessing, as you alluded to, carries with it a responsibility to bless others not as fortunate, rather than ignoring them (as many do). Many times that comes in a financial form (generosity, charity, etc.) & other times it comes in different forms (simply talking to those who are less fortunate & establishing a relationship with them).

 

Again Job serves as a tremendous example that blessing is more than financial or socio-economic. After losing just about everything, Job continued to praise God. Jesus' Sermon on the Mount also informs us that blessing isnt always necessarily what we believe it to be.

I don't want to speak for Jim but what I think he is getting at is if your good fortune is God's doing then what did the poor broke jobless starving family do to deserve their misfortune?

[woodsrider]

Instead of asking "Why does suffering exist?" we should be asking, "How can we respond to suffering. What can we do now?" Our trust in a compassionate God allows us to move beyond questions of cause and move forward with peace and hope.

That's a hard sell when you see some of the things going on.

[woodsrider]

God knows every hair on our head, and yet we are questioning him and judging him. He is God the creator of the Universe, he doesn't have to answer to us for what he does. Its like go out into your yard and pick up an ant and bring him inside and set him down beside you at your PC and say.."Ok ant here is the internet and I'm gonna explain it all to you".

Why? I'm not asking him to explain the Universe to me. I'm asking for an explanation of why I should blindly follow a book that was written a couple thousand years ago by a bunch of guys I've never met. I'm asking him to explain why so many in the world that follow his word and live their lives for him are given raw deal after raw deal. All the while there are those that do nothing for him yet are given everything. I know the ultimate pay day is on the other side but why the heck does it have to be so hard for so many on this side? When the argument ends up at you can't question any of it and you just have to have faith then the argument is over. It that is true then what Jim says about mindless savages is dead on.

[Randy Parker]

I don't want to speak for Jim but what I think he is getting at is if your good fortune is God's doing then what did the poor broke jobless starving family do to deserve their misfortune?

 

Perhaps he could clarify, but I was understanding Jim to say (correctly, in some cases) Sam & Suzie are always claiming God's blessing in their lives, while Joe & Judy across town don't have it nearly as good & are ignored by Sam & Suzie. In other words, those who are "blessed" (and they are blessed, I believe) are ignoring an important responsibility of being blessed, which is to be a blessing to others.

 

I would also again reference Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, where he says that blessing comes in a variety of forms--many of which we would not consider blessing (like being poor in spirit, meek, peacemakers, & the grandaddy of them all, persecuted).

[Randy Parker]

I'm asking him to explain why so many in the world that follow his word and live their lives for him are given raw deal after raw deal. All the while there are those that do nothing for him yet are given everything. I know the ultimate pay day is on the other side but why the heck does it have to be so hard for so many on this side?

 

The wording of your comments here made me think about (and have to look up) some very similar comments directed from one of God's own prophets, Jeremiah, to God Himself. Here's the link to Jeremiah 12: 1-4 (from the New Living Translation): http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2012:%201-4&version=NLT

 

As for the bolded, I believe this frustration is the primary reason why God included the book of Revelation in His word. My interpretation of that particular writing is different from those of the mega-best-selling fiction writers. I do not see the primary purpose of Revelation being a detailed, time-table chart of end times events. Just the opposite, I believe Revelation was written to suffering first century believers, most of whom were not only impoverished, but also facing intense persecution (sometimes to the point of death) because of their faith & righteousness. Basically, these people could say about life, "This really, really stinks." Revelation was written to them, I believe, to affirm, "Yes, this does really, really stink. But those prosperous evildoers will someday be brought down low, while you who are already down low will be prosperous for all eternity."

 

Much of this discussion hinges on what we value to be most important. For many of us, our eyes are solely on the here-and-now--the temporal things of this world that can make life easier. But it is of more value to have your treasures elsewhere--a place where moth & rust do not destroy. I know that sounds awfully churchy, but I believe it is 100% truth.

[5wide]

And if I were forced to answer the question to the best of my ability, this would pretty much be my answer. It's just that I have a hard time understanding why He would create the world & its inhabitants if He knew from the time of creation that it would go so wrong, so quickly, & in such catastrophic fashion.

 

There are times when I go back & re-read the final sections of the book of Job. This is one of those times. After Job had been through all that heartache & pain, he directed some pretty poignant questions toward God. Reading God's response, and the clear-cut sarcasm that is laced throughout His words, does to me what it did to Job: it puts me in my place. When Job asked God why all this was happening, God's response was essentially, "I'm God. You're not. That's that."

 

Pretty humbling.

 

And yes, your question is an interesting one; and for me, it's the most interesting one.

 

Your thought process sounds pretty much like mine. :thumb:

[Birdsfan]

That's a hard sell when you see some of the things going on.

You're looking at the wrong things then.

[Birdsfan]

Why? I'm not asking him to explain the Universe to me. I'm asking for an explanation of why I should blindly follow a book that was written a couple thousand years ago by a bunch of guys I've never met. I'm asking him to explain why so many in the world that follow his word and live their lives for him are given raw deal after raw deal. All the while there are those that do nothing for him yet are given everything. I know the ultimate pay day is on the other side but why the heck does it have to be so hard for so many on this side? When the argument ends up at you can't question any of it and you just have to have faith then the argument is over. It that is true then what Jim says about mindless savages is dead on.

Mindless savages? Wow! What a terrible misrepresentation (and apparent misunderstanding) of faith!

 

Imagine a man, paralyzed from birth. He cannot fathom in the furthest reaches of his mind, what it must feel like to walk, to feel the earth beneath his feet, to wiggle his toes, to even contemplate what having legs might feel like. And yet, he believes that these sensations exist, that these movements can be performed; because he has heard of these things from people he trusts, heard stories of walking, running and feeling, passed down through the generations. He can't prove, in his limited existance, that these things are true and that such unimaginable (to him) things can be perceived...and yet, he believes. That is what faith is built upon.

 

We sense the hand of God all around us, within us, and in the events of our lives. We've heard stories of his miracles and teachings from many credible witnesses -- men who gave their very lives to defend their faith. Would you die for something you didn't believe to be true? And I'm not talking about people who gained faith second-hand. I mean people like St. Peter and St. Paul, who walked with Jesus, and saw his works on earth. Faith is unexplainable, undefendable. But if you have it...you have no need to explain it or defend it to anyone.

[woodsrider]

Mindless savages? Wow! What a terrible misrepresentation (and apparent misunderstanding) of faith!

 

Imagine a man, paralyzed from birth. He cannot fathom in the furthest reaches of his mind, what it must feel like to walk, to feel the earth beneath his feet, to wiggle his toes, to even contemplate what having legs might feel like. And yet, he believes that these sensations exist, that these movements can be performed; because he has heard of these things from people he trusts, heard stories of walking, running and feeling, passed down through the generations. He can't prove, in his limited existance, that these things are true and that such unimaginable (to him) things can be perceived...and yet, he believes. That is what faith is built upon.

 

We sense the hand of God all around us, within us, and in the events of our lives. We've heard stories of his miracles and teachings from many credible witnesses -- men who gave their very lives to defend their faith. Would you die for something you didn't believe to be true? And I'm not talking about people who gained faith second-hand. I mean people like St. Peter and St. Paul, who walked with Jesus, and saw his works on earth. Faith is unexplainable, undefendable. But if you have it...you have no need to explain it or defend it to anyone.

Your analogy isn't even close to the same. It might be the same if everyone were paralyzed and stories of what it was like to have working legs were passed down for 2000 years and everyone took it on faith the stories were true. As your analogy stands the paralyzed person can see others walk, wiggle their toes, can most likely feel touch their own face so it's not a stretch to believe what your being told is true.

 

Using Peter and Paul as examples is not any different then saying because the bible says so. It's still stories from thousands of years ago. Peter and Paul are no more or less credible then anyone else I've never met. The cemetary is full of people that gave their life for what they believe in, that doesn't mean any of it is correct or true. 19 individuals gave their life on Sept 11th, 2001 for something they believed in, does that mean they were right?