God's Plan

[5wide]

I guess, but since so many people go out of their way to twist the Bible around to suit their own personal needs, I find it very easy to ignore folks who toss out Bible verses as ammunition for a debate, or seizing upon some whacked-out idea their preacher bellowed on about in Sunday's sermon, rather than trying to think for themselves.

 

I find that to be the easy way out. Rather than look at what a person is saying (or referencing fromt he Bible) and trying to decide if it is right or wrong, or responding with why you believe it's wrong, it's easier just to throw out a generic statement about how people pick-and-choose and twist scripture to suit their own needs and leave it at that.

[Jim Schue]

I find that to be the easy way out. Rather than look at what a person is saying (or referencing fromt he Bible) and trying to decide if it is right or wrong, or responding with why you believe it's wrong, it's easier just to throw out a generic statement about how people pick-and-choose and twist scripture to suit their own needs and leave it at that.

 

Really? I would argue that tossing out Bible verses willy-nilly, rather than constructing your own argument, is the easy way out. I don't turn those people off out of laziness. I do so because it's hard to tell what way they're going to twist it to support some mean-spirited or wrongheaded idea.

 

For example, how folks seize upon OT verses relating to homosexuality yet won't gouge their own eyes out for lusting after another's wife/husband.

[Alabama Larry]

Jim, we are under a new Law, not the law of Moses. read...opps I forgot you don't want Bible verses. But Galatians/Hebrews explains why we are not under OT laws. Remember? Those Bible books are for other folks on here. In fact Leviticus is really crazy around 18/19 chapters. So, someone might ask why not the OT, and that goes back to the thread question.."God's Plan". Man couldn't keep those laws and they were so many other rules beside the big 10 in the OT.

[Jim Schue]

Jim, we are under a new Law, not the law of Moses. read...opps I forgot you don't want Bible verses. But Galatians/Hebrews explains why we are not under OT laws. Remember? Those Bible books are for other folks on here. In fact Leviticus is really crazy around 18/19 chapters. So, someone might ask why not the OT, and that goes back to the thread question.."God's Plan". Man couldn't keep those laws and they were so many other rules beside the big 10 in the OT.

 

I hear that whole "we are under a new Law" thing all the time. If that's the case, why do people use the Bible as a defense for being anti-homosexual? I don't recall the NT addressing anti-homosexuality anywhere.

 

For that matter, why even read any of the OT passages in church, if it doesn't matter anymore?

[Birdsfan]

Jim, we are under a new Law, not the law of Moses. read...opps I forgot you don't want Bible verses. But Galatians/Hebrews explains why we are not under OT laws. Remember? Those Bible books are for other folks on here. In fact Leviticus is really crazy around 18/19 chapters. So, someone might ask why not the OT, and that goes back to the thread question.."God's Plan". Man couldn't keep those laws and they were so many other rules beside the big 10 in the OT.

If I'm reading you correctly, the New Testament accounts fulfilled the prophesies of, and more clearly defined the Old Testament. It didn't negate the Old testament -- it completed it. Basically, the New Testament, and the coming of Jesus made the old law no longer necessary. But each of the testaments are one essential part of the whole of scripture and divine revelation. Right?

[Run To State]

I hear that whole "we are under a new Law" thing all the time. If that's the case, why do people use the Bible as a defense for being anti-homosexual? I don't recall the NT addressing anti-homosexuality anywhere.

 

For that matter, why even read any of the OT passages in church, if it doesn't matter anymore?

Most people I know aren't anti-homosexual, they're against gay marriage. Now, I realize there is no shortage of people that are anti-homosexual, but I can honestly say I know very few that are. What I'm getting at is I think you're lumping those against gay marriage in with those that just flat out hate gays.

[Alabama Larry]

Jim, why do you think you have heard "under a new law?" Now there are several verses that deal with sexual immorality in the NT, you want me to share them? Matthew 15:19/Acts 15:20/!st Corinthians 5:1/6:13/6:18/10:8/ 2nd Corinthians 12:21/ Galatians 5:19/ Ephesians 5:/3.

 

The OT has some great passages that teaches us the history of the Bible that has God's Plan. We just are not under the OT law.

[Randy Parker]

For example, how folks seize upon OT verses relating to homosexuality yet won't gouge their own eyes out for lusting after another's wife/husband.

 

My response would be that sometimes the Bible is to be taken in an absolute literal context (Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church, forgive one another, etc.). There are other times when it is to be taken figuratively (it doesn't mean literally gouge your eye out or cut your hand off...it means go to extremes to cut this sin out of your life; it doesn't mean you forgive 7 times 70 & then stop after you've forgiven that many times...it means keep forgiving).

 

Sometimes, understanding when we interpret literally or figuratively is easy to do. There are admittedly other times when it's tough to tell. Add into that this difficulty of trying to interpret whether a certain command was for all-time or just for those folks in the first century (like I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man).

[Randy Parker]

On the New Testament addressing homosexuality, there's this from 1 Corinthians 6:

 

9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

People are quick to point out the homosexuality part, but it also mentions adultery, greed, slanderers, etc. I believe Jim does make a valid point on the picking and choosing done by a number of Christians.

[Jim Schue]

My response would be that sometimes the Bible is to be taken in an absolute literal context (Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church, forgive one another, etc.). There are other times when it is to be taken figuratively (it doesn't mean literally gouge your eye out or cut your hand off...it means go to extremes to cut this sin out of your life; it doesn't mean you forgive 7 times 70 & then stop after you've forgiven that many times...it means keep forgiving).

 

Sometimes, understanding when we interpret literally or figuratively is easy to do. There are admittedly other times when it's tough to tell. Add into that this difficulty of trying to interpret whether a certain command was for all-time or just for those folks in the first century (like I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man).

 

Therein lies the other problem I have with the Bible as it relates to how some interpret it, and why it's a weak piece of ammunition for use in debate. Some folks are raised, like me, to take some of it literal and other parts as symbolic (Revelations, for instance). On the other hand, you have hardcore evangelicals and, it seems, most Baptist sects, who say every word is to be taken literally. Who's right? Who determines who's right?

 

It's like playing the same game under thousands of different rulebooks, to the point that the game barely resembles itself from one Christian sect to another.

[Jim Schue]

On the New Testament addressing homosexuality, there's this from 1 Corinthians 6:

 

9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

People are quick to point out the homosexuality part, but it also mentions adultery, greed, slanderers, etc. I believe Jim does make a valid point on the picking and choosing done by a number of Christians.

 

Were "homosexual" and "heterosexual" even words that were used in those days?

[Alabama Larry]

2nd Timothy 3:15:16

[Birdsfan]

Therein lies the other problem I have with the Bible as it relates to how some interpret it, and why it's a weak piece of ammunition for use in debate. Some folks are raised, like me, to take some of it literal and other parts as symbolic (Revelations, for instance). On the other hand, you have hardcore evangelicals and, it seems, most Baptist sects, who say every word is to be taken literally. Who's right? Who determines who's right?

 

It's like playing the same game under thousands of different rulebooks, to the point that the game barely resembles itself from one Christian sect to another.

You have to choose to believe and choose what to believe. Personally, our Catholic faith teaches that the various parts of the Bible can, and should, be interpreted on literal/historical, tropological (moral), allegorical and/or anagogical terms.

[Randy Parker]

Were "homosexual" and "heterosexual" even words that were used in those days?

 

The Greek word Paul uses in that passage is Arsenokoitai. "Arsen" means "man." "Koitai" means "beds." The same word is used in 1 Timothy 1:10, where it is translated "perverts."

[ladiesbballcoach]

If he knew/knows everything that happened/going happen what is the point?

 

If God is omnipotent than time has no meaning for him. He knows all because in his power every instance of time, the past, present and future all occur at the same time for God.

 

He is at the creation of the world, the fall of man, the death of his Son, the roman empire, the assassination of Lincoln, the death of #3 and whenever the Cubs win the World Series all at the same time.

 

The concept of linear time is for man, not God.

 

If God is limited by linear time than He is not omnipotent.