Kobe vs. Jordan

[CatsCatsCats]

Lebron is unbelievable, but he can't consistently beat you from outside. That's why I'd still take Kobe right now in the playoffs. He can beat you from everywhere. I thought LBJ was far better, but I think Kobe has a slight edge still for the playoffs only. Not taking anything away from LBJ especially since his best teammate is Mo Williams. I'm just complementing Kobe.

 

His outside game really isn't that bad anymore. He didn't shoot well in the Celtics series, but realistically alot of that had to do with his attitude and possibly his elbow. Kobe's outside game is better, but LeBron makes up for that in alot of other areas.

 

Kobe has a more complete offensive package scoring wise, but LeBron is unstoppable going to the basket when he has his mind right.

[CatsCatsCats]

Can we end this ridiculous MJ v. Kobe argument yet? It's 27 to 2.

[PurplePride92]

Not buying what? The facts I stated would permanently kill the Kobe v. Michael debate. A debate that should have never taken place in the first place.

 

Also, saying it took Jordan 6 years, let's not even think about how long it would have taken Kobe had he been the lead dog since year one with no help. The Bulls went as soon as Pippen emerged as another legit star.

 

I was responding to your post when you said his legacy would take a hit if the Lakers lose this series. That was my point of view in that particular post.

 

As for how long it would take Kobe if he had been the lead dog....you say that assuming the Lakers never would have gotten him some help not named Shaq. That's yet another thing that muddies up the debate. The Lakers with just Kobe from 96 on is only something we can speculate on. They got him the help he needed soon after Shaq left. I have no reason to believe that they wouldn't have put together a great team around him. Probably could have gotten Webber a ring or two or three. Who knows.......It's funny though that at the beginning of his career he played the Pippen role to win rings and it counts against him even though MJ needed Pippen for all 6 rings.

[PurplePride92]

Can we end this ridiculous MJ v. Kobe argument yet? It's 27 to 2.

 

Never.

 

At least not until most of the MJ apologists can admit that the gap between the two is very close.

[MJAlltheWay24]

Reggie Miller. Glad you said him. Reggie Miller is not, was not physically equipped to guard MJ. No shooting guards except for Drexler maybe were physically equipped to guard MJ. MJ dominated shooting guards that were not physically equipped or athletic enough to guard him. Kobe sees guys every night that are physically equipped and athletic enough to guard him.

 

I never said that Reggie Miller guarded MJ, I just said he is one of the greatest shooting guards to play the game (if though I can't stand him) and Jordan consistently beat him and his names. During the second championships run those Pacers teams were tough.

 

Defenses don't even try during the 82 game season anymore...that wasn't the same in the 90's.

[MJAlltheWay24]

When Kobe lost Shaq it took him 3 years to get back to the Finals. It took MJ 6 years to get to the Finals and he had Pippen for 2 of those years. He never beat the Celtics or Pistons when they were at their best. His highest scoring game came in an overtime loss to the Celtics. When he beat the Pistons they were old and battered and bruised from chasing the Celtics for years and I already conceded them beating the last good Laker team until Kobe and Shaq came along. He never beat great teams. Kobe and Shaq have beaten great Spurs teams and the Lakers domination in the last 3 seasons over what is arguably the toughest the Western Conference has ever been speaks volumes, IMO.

 

I don't think you can discount how tough the Utah Jazz team was in 97 and 98. They had argueably one of the best duo in the history of the game, with plenty of other good players around them.

 

I would also argue that the game when Jordan played was a big man game for sure (Shaq, Ewing, Mourning, Malone, and etc.). The rules have changes and I honestly feel like it is a lot easier for players like Jordan now than it was back in the 80's and 90's.

[Voice of Reason]

I agree that their individual talents on the floor are very close. The stats are incredibly close. But after thinking about this and reading the comments in the thread, I think I would switch my vote and go with Jordan. The reason is I think Jordan is a better team mate. There is an obnoxious arrogance about Kobe and something pervasively selfish about Kobe and I think it translates to how he "leads" his team on the floor. I don't think Jordan's team mates felt the arrogance and selfishness that Kobe's team mates do and that is the reason why Jordan has a better record in title games. Jordan is a better team mate and a better leader on the court.

 

The one area where I would take Kobe over Jordan without much doubt is shooting the 3. I think Kobe is the greatest 3 point threat in NBA history. IMO, no player, including Jordan, is as good as Kobe at getting and making the 3 in the face of double teams, etc. If I were behind by 15 in the 3rd quarter of a big game, I would take Kobe over Jordan to be out there shooting 3's and getting us back into the game.

[CatsCatsCats]

I was responding to your post when you said his legacy would take a hit if the Lakers lose this series. That was my point of view in that particular post.

 

As for how long it would take Kobe if he had been the lead dog....you say that assuming the Lakers never would have gotten him some help not named Shaq. That's yet another thing that muddies up the debate. The Lakers with just Kobe from 96 on is only something we can speculate on. They got him the help he needed soon after Shaq left. I have no reason to believe that they wouldn't have put together a great team around him. Probably could have gotten Webber a ring or two or three. Who knows.......It's funny though that at the beginning of his career he played the Pippen role to win rings and it counts against him even though MJ needed Pippen for all 6 rings.

 

There is a difference in having a sidekick and being the sidekick. At no point in time was Jordan second fiddle to anyone on his title teams, in 3 of Kobe's 4 titles he was the 2nd guy. I don't see how if Kobe gets 6 it can be looked at as the same as Jordan's 6. Kobe has been to the Finals 6 times before this trip and has 1 MVP to show for it. Jordan went 6 times, brought home 6 Titles and 6 MVPs.

 

Jordan has some of the greatest Finals performances in NBA history. What are Kobe's huge Finals moments? Jordan probably has 3 or 4 of the top 10 individual games in Finals history. Does Kobe?

[CatsCatsCats]

Never.

 

At least not until most of the MJ apologists can admit that the gap between the two is very close.

 

I just don't see how it could be. Kobe isn't even as good as Magic yet. That would be the better comparison and argument.

[MJAlltheWay24]

It's funny though that at the beginning of his career he played the Pippen role to win rings and it counts against him even though MJ needed Pippen for all 6 rings.

 

Not discounting his rings at all. But even you just said, Kobe played a back-up role to Shaq. He wasn't even the best player on three of his championships.

 

I will give you Kobe over Pippen in that debate, but even now you are seeing where most of us are coming from.

[MJAlltheWay24]

Never.

 

At least not until most of the MJ apologists can admit that the gap between the two is very close.

 

Very Close? Not at all.

 

Close? Hardly

 

However, the closest thing to MJ? I will definitely give Kobe that, but there is still a pretty decent gap between them. He still has a few years to close that gap, but I just don't see it happening.

[PurplePride92]

I just don't see how it could be. Kobe isn't even as good as Magic yet. That would be the better comparison and argument.

 

I'd take Magic before MJ as well. MJ would be my 3rd pick after the 2 greatest Lakers.

[PurplePride92]

Very Close? Not at all.

 

Close? Hardly

 

However, the closest thing to MJ? I will definitely give Kobe that, but there is still a pretty decent gap between them. He still has a few years to close that gap, but I just don't see it happening.

 

I am talking about an individually skilled great player. No way will Kobe equal a fair amount of MJ's accomplishments but what I am trying to say is that when it comes to those two and their respective games you lose virtually nothing. That is the only point I am trying to make. As someone said earlier, MJ did things Kobe couldn't do and Kobe did things MJ couldn't do. There is no doubt in my mind that had they both switched places in life that Kobe would have a statue in Chicago and MJ would be preparing for game 6 right now.

[PurplePride92]

I agree that their individual talents on the floor are very close. The stats are incredibly close. But after thinking about this and reading the comments in the thread, I think I would switch my vote and go with Jordan. The reason is I think Jordan is a better team mate. There is an obnoxious arrogance about Kobe and something pervasively selfish about Kobe and I think it translates to how he "leads" his team on the floor. I don't think Jordan's team mates felt the arrogance and selfishness that Kobe's team mates do and that is the reason why Jordan has a better record in title games. Jordan is a better team mate and a better leader on the court.

 

The one area where I would take Kobe over Jordan without much doubt is shooting the 3. I think Kobe is the greatest 3 point threat in NBA history. IMO, no player, including Jordan, is as good as Kobe at getting and making the 3 in the face of double teams, etc. If I were behind by 15 in the 3rd quarter of a big game, I would take Kobe over Jordan to be out there shooting 3's and getting us back into the game.

 

Jordan was a bully to his teammates. That has been reported. He wasn't exactly a great teammate. Even Phil Jackson says that Jordan was a bully and Kobe is a lot like how Jordan was in practice. I also don't think you can get anymore obnoxious and arrogant as MJ did during his HOF induction speech. For the record I loved it but his HOF speech was the first time I had ever seen the media turn on "the greatest player of all time" Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

[PurplePride92]

And would someone please tell MJ to shave the Hitler mustache? Please. He had to know it was a Hitler mustache when he carved it above his top lip.