Lebron James

[5wide]

I didn't say he didn't have help, I said Mo Williams is not the reason for Cleveland getting better. It's LeBron taking his game to yet another level. This is easily his best year as a pro, Mo Williams landing in Cleveland this year coincides with LeBron having such a spectacular year.

 

What happens next year when Cleveland flirts with the best record ever in the NBA, will that be because of Mo Williams also, or will it be because there are still a couple of more levels LeBron can reach to even further elevate his game?

 

I'm not disputing the fact that Lebron's improvement is one reason the Cavs are better. I'm disputing your assertion that it's the only reason (or as you put it, "Lebron is the team."). Cleveland has a team...the supporting cast in Cleveland is well suited to complement Lebron James and they're better than you, and many others, give them credit for being. Mo Williams is the #2 guy on that team, and the second scorer that LJ has needed, and lacked, up until this year. James is better. He has a much needed #2 scoring threat to take pressure away from him or make teams pay. Consequently, thanks to these two facts, the rest of the roster is better as well.

 

Otherwise, Cleveland has the worst front office in all of sports. If it was a simple as letting Lebron keep "hulking up", they're stupid for spending all that money on 11 other roster spots. They could save themselves a lot of money by letting Lebron pick a few guys out of the crowd every night, instead of paying Wally, Big Ben, Mo, et al. It'd be a lot cheaper and could be a brilliant marketing campaign.

 

"11 lucky season ticket holders will be chosen at random by the king himself to fill out our roster for the upcoming season."

 

And, the best part is that it won't affect the team's won-loss record, because everybody knows that Lebron wins these games by himself.

 

 

Easily his best year? Show me the drastic change in his numbers, because I'm not seeing it. It's his best year because the Cavs are going to finish with the best record in the league. They're going to do that because, along with Lebron improving individually, the supporting cast is better and includes the much needed wingman who can consistently produce night in and night out.

 

You think the Celtics are champions last year if Mo Williams is on the Cavs roster? Not a chance. Cleveland should have beat them anyway.

 

Lebron is going to keep improving like any great player in their mid-20's. Adding a legit Robin to LJ's Batman is what's taking the team to the elite level.

 

I'm not sure anybody is going to beat the Cavs this year and it will only get tougher from this point.

[5wide]

:thumb:

 

Kobe is a fine player, but I think he doesn't give you as much as LeBron or Jordan, or even DWade (though he is a better overall player than Wade). Those players are able to do more in 48 minutes for their teams than Kobe. When Jordan took over a game it was over, Kobe can go for 50 but still lose, and his stat sheet will not be nearly as full. If you want to call Kobe a better pure scorer than LBJ or DWade fine, but I think they actually give their teams more. When Kobe has decided to score, his teammates are just kinda taking up space on the court. A 40 or 50 point game from LeBron or DWade will also have them with 8 or 9 boards and 7 or 8 assist. Scoring 81 points or winning titles cannot be the only thing to account for greatness. If you have to win a title to be great then discount Dan Marino, John Stockton, Pat Ewing, Charles Barkley and all kinds of others. For titles you have to have the team, this is the first year LBJ has had the type of team that can win it all possibly. Mo Williams was a huge addition. If Kobe is better than LeBron it is only a matter of time before he closes that door and he will only be battling MJ for top wing player of all-time. Kobe won't catch Jordan, but LeBron still can. Not saying that he will, but he could.

 

Lebron is better than Kobe now. I disagree concerning Wade. As for Jordan, the Bulls were typically better when he was scoring around his average...when he scored huge numbers they usually won a very close game or lost. Just like the Lakers with Kobe. Kobe was forced to carry a bigger load scoring-wise after Shaq left. Otherwise, the team had no chance to win. If you want to criticize him because his team lost some of those games, fine...just remember that they probably wouldn't have been in the game at all had he not done that. But, he's not as good as Jordan. Never has been. Never will be.

 

I like Kobe. He's my favorite player currently in the league, but I can accept the facts.

 

1. He's not as good as Jordan.

2. He's not as good as Lebron James right now.

[TheDeuce]

LeBron James is not better than Kobe Bryant.

[PurplePride92]

I'm not disputing the fact that Lebron's improvement is one reason the Cavs are better. I'm disputing your assertion that it's the only reason (or as you put it, "Lebron is the team."). Cleveland has a team...the supporting cast in Cleveland is well suited to complement Lebron James and they're better than you, and many others, give them credit for being. Mo Williams is the #2 guy on that team, and the second scorer that LJ has needed, and lacked, up until this year. James is better. He has a much needed #2 scoring threat to take pressure away from him or make teams pay. Consequently, thanks to these two facts, the rest of the roster is better as well.

 

Otherwise, Cleveland has the worst front office in all of sports. If it was a simple as letting Lebron keep "hulking up", they're stupid for spending all that money on 11 other roster spots. They could save themselves a lot of money by letting Lebron pick a few guys out of the crowd every night, instead of paying Wally, Big Ben, Mo, et al. It'd be a lot cheaper and could be a brilliant marketing campaign.

 

"11 lucky season ticket holders will be chosen at random by the king himself to fill out our roster for the upcoming season."

 

And, the best part is that it won't affect the team's won-loss record, because everybody knows that Lebron wins these games by himself.

 

 

Easily his best year? Show me the drastic change in his numbers, because I'm not seeing it. It's his best year because the Cavs are going to finish with the best record in the league. They're going to do that because, along with Lebron improving individually, the supporting cast is better and includes the much needed wingman who can consistently produce night in and night out.

 

You think the Celtics are champions last year if Mo Williams is on the Cavs roster? Not a chance. Cleveland should have beat them anyway.

 

Lebron is going to keep improving like any great player in their mid-20's. Adding a legit Robin to LJ's Batman is what's taking the team to the elite level.

 

I'm not sure anybody is going to beat the Cavs this year and it will only get tougher from this point.

 

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I am not ready to say Cleveland is the best in the East because of Mo Williams. The entire Cleveland roster has gotten better and played their roles very well. Not to mention the chemistry that they have as a team speaks volumes to the leadership ability Bron Bron has displayed this year. It's hard for me to put in words, but the LeBron I have watched this year plays with a maturity and confidence that I didn't see last year and that is why I think the Cavs are better, not because of Mo Williams. He was a great addition, but how many games did they win this year because of him?

 

Yes, I do think the Celtics would have beaten the Cavs with Mo Williams last year. They were on a mission and weren't to be stopped. They might not have dominated the series with the Cavs, but at no time did I ever feel like the Cavs were going to win the series.

[PurplePride92]

Lebron is better than Kobe now. I disagree concerning Wade. As for Jordan, the Bulls were typically better when he was scoring around his average...when he scored huge numbers they usually won a very close game or lost. Just like the Lakers with Kobe. Kobe was forced to carry a bigger load scoring-wise after Shaq left. Otherwise, the team had no chance to win. If you want to criticize him because his team lost some of those games, fine...just remember that they probably wouldn't have been in the game at all had he not done that. But, he's not as good as Jordan. Never has been. Never will be.

 

I like Kobe. He's my favorite player currently in the league, but I can accept the facts.

 

1. He's not as good as Jordan.

2. He's not as good as Lebron James right now.

 

 

1. I think Kobe is as good as Jordan(not better but is as good), but Jordan has the stats to back up any argument that he is greater. They are very similar players, with very similar games, Jordan just came along first. Had Kobe come out when Jordan did and Jordan come out when Kobe did then we would be touting Kobe as the greatest, IMO. With Kobe, we have seen all this before with Jordan so because of circumstance, Jordan will always be the one who people say is better. The question I have is, say, Kobe manages to get 7 rings, does he automatically become better than Jordan?

 

2. I think Kobe is better than LeBron for the time being because of his experience as a winner. I think a player's greatness is measured by more than just his stats. That being said, LeBron does things no one, not even Jordan could do because he is playing the game with Karl Malone's size doing things Jordan did with the ability of Magic Johnson. As time goes on, LeBron will more than likely be the best ever, but for now, I still have to give it to Kobe as best player right now.

 

Only one player has walked into Cleveland with his team this year and walked out a winner and that was Kobe and the Lakers.........

 

Not to mention, the Lakers swept the series with Cleveland this year.

 

I'll take Kobe over LeBron for now, but within the next 2 years, I don't think it'll be close.

[CatsCatsCats]

I'm not disputing the fact that Lebron's improvement is one reason the Cavs are better. I'm disputing your assertion that it's the only reason (or as you put it, "Lebron is the team."). Cleveland has a team...the supporting cast in Cleveland is well suited to complement Lebron James and they're better than you, and many others, give them credit for being. Mo Williams is the #2 guy on that team, and the second scorer that LJ has needed, and lacked, up until this year. James is better. He has a much needed #2 scoring threat to take pressure away from him or make teams pay. Consequently, thanks to these two facts, the rest of the roster is better as well.

 

Otherwise, Cleveland has the worst front office in all of sports. If it was a simple as letting Lebron keep "hulking up", they're stupid for spending all that money on 11 other roster spots. They could save themselves a lot of money by letting Lebron pick a few guys out of the crowd every night, instead of paying Wally, Big Ben, Mo, et al. It'd be a lot cheaper and could be a brilliant marketing campaign.

 

"11 lucky season ticket holders will be chosen at random by the king himself to fill out our roster for the upcoming season."

 

And, the best part is that it won't affect the team's won-loss record, because everybody knows that Lebron wins these games by himself.

 

 

Easily his best year? Show me the drastic change in his numbers, because I'm not seeing it. It's his best year because the Cavs are going to finish with the best record in the league. They're going to do that because, along with Lebron improving individually, the supporting cast is better and includes the much needed wingman who can consistently produce night in and night out.

 

You think the Celtics are champions last year if Mo Williams is on the Cavs roster? Not a chance. Cleveland should have beat them anyway.

 

Lebron is going to keep improving like any great player in their mid-20's. Adding a legit Robin to LJ's Batman is what's taking the team to the elite level.

 

I'm not sure anybody is going to beat the Cavs this year and it will only get tougher from this point.

 

The part in bold was the funniest thing I have ever seen on here. Good job with that and very good points. :thumb:

 

Lebron is better than Kobe now. I disagree concerning Wade. As for Jordan, the Bulls were typically better when he was scoring around his average...when he scored huge numbers they usually won a very close game or lost. Just like the Lakers with Kobe. Kobe was forced to carry a bigger load scoring-wise after Shaq left. Otherwise, the team had no chance to win. If you want to criticize him because his team lost some of those games, fine...just remember that they probably wouldn't have been in the game at all had he not done that. But, he's not as good as Jordan. Never has been. Never will be.

 

I like Kobe. He's my favorite player currently in the league, but I can accept the facts.

 

1. He's not as good as Jordan.

2. He's not as good as Lebron James right now.

 

I agree here. I was saying that to me DWade give you a little more, teamwise, than Kobe does. He has proven that he can win a title, and this season I'd say his entire stat line is fuller. No doubt Kobe is better, I just think it is possible if you were starting a team that you may need to consider DWade over Kobe.

 

Also, I'd definitely take LeBron over Kobe as who is the best. But, I think a case could be made for either player. :thumb:

[CatsCatsCats]

1. I think Kobe is as good as Jordan(not better but is as good), but Jordan has the stats to back up any argument that he is greater. They are very similar players, with very similar games, Jordan just came along first. Had Kobe come out when Jordan did and Jordan come out when Kobe did then we would be touting Kobe as the greatest, IMO. With Kobe, we have seen all this before with Jordan so because of circumstance, Jordan will always be the one who people say is better. The question I have is, say, Kobe manages to get 7 rings, does he automatically become better than Jordan?

 

2. I think Kobe is better than LeBron for the time being because of his experience as a winner. I think a player's greatness is measured by more than just his stats. That being said, LeBron does things no one, not even Jordan could do because he is playing the game with Karl Malone's size doing things Jordan did with the ability of Magic Johnson. As time goes on, LeBron will more than likely be the best ever, but for now, I still have to give it to Kobe as best player right now.

 

Only one player has walked into Cleveland with his team this year and walked out a winner and that was Kobe and the Lakers.........

 

Not to mention, the Lakers swept the series with Cleveland this year.

 

I'll take Kobe over LeBron for now, but within the next 2 years, I don't think it'll be close.

 

I have just a few problems with this. And I'm not saying your wrong, it's just my thinking.

When you watch Kobe, as a non-fan, you see a very, very good player. A top 10 all-time player, no doubt. You don't see the overall greatness that a Michael Jordan, a Magic Johnson, an Oscar Robertson, or a Wilt Chamberlain. Greatness oozed off of those guys, you could tell it on the other players faces. You don't get that with Kobe, never have. Think of all the "Jordan Moment", what does Kobe have that compares? Signature moments for Jordan, the shot at UNC, the triple pump against Craig Ehlo and the Cavs, the crazy move in the paint against the Lakers in the Finals, the push off against Bryon Russell and Utah, the dunk contest, the toungue sticking out all the time, and countless others. Things that define Jordan. Kobe will always be defined as a player who wanted more than anything to be Jordan. He had titles, but they will be tainted forever unjustly, because he won them with Shaq, the most dominant Center of the era and possibly alltime. If he wins more they will be looked at as given to him because of the talent he has around him. It's not fair really, but the best post player Jordan played with was Horace Grant? It's really Rodman, but he only played defense. So either or. Pippen was great, but that was about it for Jordan.

Kobe isn't in Jordan's league. Like I said before the only thing Kobe is better at is that he can shoot threes. Jordan was better at every other aspect of the game, and many aren't even close. IF somehow Kobe can win 7 titles, it won't make a difference or it shouldn't. GREATNESS cannot only be measured in titles. If so then Robert Horry is better than Kobe or LeBron, or just about anyone. Like you said, a players greatness has to be measured by more than just stats. Titles are a stat.

And other, the Lakers won at Staples center, not Kobe. He (Kobe) didn't really even have that good of a game as he hurt his hand or finger. That is like saying LBJ won all these games by himself to me.

No argument just stating my opinion. But I will say, if you dropped a younger Shaq, say 28 years old, in LeBron's lap two years ago, he would win titles until Shaq got to old to play.

[DragonFire]

It's interesting you mention Kobe's signature moments. I hadn't ever thought of that. The #1 thing that sticks out to me about Kobe is dropping 81 on Toronto, but that's really what you always think of with Kobe, huge scoring performances. Heck, the #1 single play I can think of with Kobe is his alley oop to Shaq to cap the comeback against Portland.

 

What's a truly big game that Kobe had a game winner in?

[futurecoach]

As far as talent, Cleveland doesn't have much. What they have is a solid second fiddle in Mo Williams, and a bunch of role players who have really bought in to what they need to do to be successful. Delonte West and Anderson Varajao come to mind, very good complements for LeBron. Don't mention Wally though, he is terrible. He will be gone as soon as they can get rid of him and get some sort of value back. Big Z and Wallace are way past their primes but they do their part. Other teams have more overall talent, like the Lakers, Magic, Celtics, Hornets, Jazz, Spurs and a few others, but this lineup so far has proven that it can give LeBron what he needs.

 

They don't have as much talent at the offensive end. However they have the best talent when it comes to guys who can play GREAT team defense. If Lebron had more talent around him offensively, they wouldn't be as good defensively and I bet they wouldn't be as good overall right now. People need to not look at the offensive production and say Lebron doesn't have much around him. He does have a lot of talent around him, it just comes on the defensive end. Which works out PERFECT for him. I mean for any star player it would. If you have a team who can hold teams down, and have a star player who can score points to offset the lack of talent offensively by other players. Then your going to be in very good shape. That is why I think you could put someone like Kobe or Wade on this team, and they probably still be in this same position or atleast still one of the top teams. Because they still would be great defensively, and they still would have that one go to guy who can score whenever they want to. Which would still create shots for everyone else. I not trying to take away from Lebron because he is amazing, but his team around him is perfect for a star player. I been saying this for the last couple of years, and not just this year.

[futurecoach]

It's interesting you mention Kobe's signature moments. I hadn't ever thought of that. The #1 thing that sticks out to me about Kobe is dropping 81 on Toronto, but that's really what you always think of with Kobe, huge scoring performances. Heck, the #1 single play I can think of with Kobe is his alley oop to Shaq to cap the comeback against Portland.

 

What's a truly big game that Kobe had a game winner in?

 

The one off the top of my head is against the Suns a few years ago. Right now Kobe is by far the best clutch player at end of games in the league, Lebron wouldn't even come close to him in that category right now. Lebron still has yet to show that he can come up with the big shot at the end of the game to win it consistenly. That is another area he will have to improve on, if he wants to have a chance to be considered better than MJ, and even Kobe for that matter.

[CatsCatsCats]

The one off the top of my head is against the Suns a few years ago. Right now Kobe is by far the best clutch player at end of games in the league, Lebron wouldn't even come close to him in that category right now. Lebron still has yet to show that he can come up with the big shot at the end of the game to win it consistenly. That is another area he will have to improve on, if he wants to have a chance to be considered better than MJ, and even Kobe for that matter.

 

Neither are in Jordan's league in that regard. But isn't LBJ a little closer if you think of it? I guess dropping about 100 straight on the Pistons, while helping his undertalented team to the finals was meaningless? It was a team they had no business beating, and it showed in the finals. Kobe hasn't had a moment like that, where he carried his team in the playoffs to a place they shouldn't have been. That is clutch to me. Kobe's 3 championships were relatively easy, the toughest coming against the Pacers. Last year, they were favored to BEAT the Celtics and got embarrassed. I don't see how Kobe is more clutch. So what if he hits a shot in the regular season. If we're going by that Gilbert Arenas is one of most clutch playes of my lifetime. I know the Western Conference is tougher, but that Pistons team was very good. LeBron has hit some big shots, and missed some big shots, just like Kobe. He hasn't had the supporting #2 scorer until this year to contend for a title, and he has played alot less so he has fewer moments. Like I said, replace LeBron with Kobe and the Lakers probably have more titles. He would have matured faster and would have been more likely to have kept Shaq happy.

Kobe's signature moments are an Oop to Shaq and an 81 point performance which included 46 attempted FG, 20 FT and 2 assist.

[PurplePride92]

Neither are in Jordan's league in that regard. But isn't LBJ a little closer if you think of it? I guess dropping about 100 straight on the Pistons, while helping his undertalented team to the finals was meaningless? It was a team they had no business beating, and it showed in the finals. Kobe hasn't had a moment like that, where he carried his team in the playoffs to a place they shouldn't have been. That is clutch to me. Kobe's 3 championships were relatively easy, the toughest coming against the Pacers. Last year, they were favored to BEAT the Celtics and got embarrassed. I don't see how Kobe is more clutch. So what if he hits a shot in the regular season. If we're going by that Gilbert Arenas is one of most clutch playes of my lifetime. I know the Western Conference is tougher, but that Pistons team was very good. LeBron has hit some big shots, and missed some big shots, just like Kobe. He hasn't had the supporting #2 scorer until this year to contend for a title, and he has played alot less so he has fewer moments. Like I said, replace LeBron with Kobe and the Lakers probably have more titles. He would have matured faster and would have been more likely to have kept Shaq happy.

Kobe's signature moments are an Oop to Shaq and an 81 point performance which included 46 attempted FG, 20 FT and 2 assist.

 

Don't know where that came from. I seem to recall all the NBA experts picking the Celtics to win. Last year all everyone talked about was that it was the Celtics year AND they had homecourt in the Finals. The Lakers were never favored to beat the Celtics and it's hard to say embarrassed by the Celtics when the Celtics were the best team in the NBA throughout the regular season and playoffs.

[futurecoach]

Neither are in Jordan's league in that regard. But isn't LBJ a little closer if you think of it? I guess dropping about 100 straight on the Pistons, while helping his undertalented team to the finals was meaningless? It was a team they had no business beating, and it showed in the finals. Kobe hasn't had a moment like that, where he carried his team in the playoffs to a place they shouldn't have been. That is clutch to me. Kobe's 3 championships were relatively easy, the toughest coming against the Pacers. Last year, they were favored to BEAT the Celtics and got embarrassed. I don't see how Kobe is more clutch. So what if he hits a shot in the regular season. If we're going by that Gilbert Arenas is one of most clutch playes of my lifetime. I know the Western Conference is tougher, but that Pistons team was very good. LeBron has hit some big shots, and missed some big shots, just like Kobe. He hasn't had the supporting #2 scorer until this year to contend for a title, and he has played alot less so he has fewer moments. Like I said, replace LeBron with Kobe and the Lakers probably have more titles. He would have matured faster and would have been more likely to have kept Shaq happy.

Kobe's signature moments are an Oop to Shaq and an 81 point performance which included 46 attempted FG, 20 FT and 2 assist.

 

Did I say it was meaningless? I mean that was remarkable what he did in that game. That was very clutch of him for that game...I don't remember to many other ones by him. Both Lebron and Kobe score a lot of points. However Kobe has came up with the shot at the end of the games that Lebron has not. Kobe has shown that killer instinct to close out a game, Lebron has not yet. Lebron is still very young, so he very well can develop that, but right now he has not.

 

By the way as for the Pistons series that the Cavs won a few years ago. It just goes back to what I been saying, Lebron's supporting cast is not that bad like you all say. Yeah offensively if you compare them to others they were not as talented, however they were still one of the best defensive teams in the league then. So just goes to what I am saying, is that is perfect situation. You play on a team who can stop people, then add in a star player who can score when they want and create shots for other than your going to do good. I mean that was a good matchup for the Cavs. The Pistons were a very good team. But what were they known for? That is right they were known for defense. The Cavs were also known for defense, so those two would cancel each other out. Who had the one big star though on their team? That would be the Cavs in Lebron. If your a great defensive team, then your going to win lots of games. Add a star into the mix, and you do even better. That is the one reason why the Pistons didn't win more than one title, they were a great defensive team with guys who can score some. But they had no one who could just take over a game when they had to. The Cavs are basically the Pistons, with a star player who can take over a game. So yeah I don't buy the whole thing about him not having a good team around him. It just comes on the defensive end.

 

Back on subject though, I can't believe your even comparing the two in Kobe and Lebron when it comes to who has been more clutch though. I mean most people on here know that I HATE Kobe, so I wouldn't be defending him if I didn't believe it. Lebron is not in Kobe's category when it comes to clutch play at end of games, and neither is close to MJ though.

[PurplePride92]

It's interesting you mention Kobe's signature moments. I hadn't ever thought of that. The #1 thing that sticks out to me about Kobe is dropping 81 on Toronto, but that's really what you always think of with Kobe, huge scoring performances. Heck, the #1 single play I can think of with Kobe is his alley oop to Shaq to cap the comeback against Portland.

 

What's a truly big game that Kobe had a game winner in?

 

The appropriate question should be in what big game has a game winner been needed that Kobe didn't make? I can't recall any big games in which a game winner by Kobe was needed, but I can't recall any big games in which he missed the game winner either. It seems as if his team either wins or loses and a game winner isn't called into the equation. I could be wrong though, but I can't recall him missing any big game game winning shots.

[DragonFire]

The appropriate question should be in what big game has a game winner been needed that Kobe didn't make? I can't recall any big games in which a game winner by Kobe was needed, but I can't recall any big games in which he missed the game winner either. It seems as if his team either wins or loses and a game winner isn't called into the equation. I could be wrong though, but I can't recall him missing any big game game winning shots.

Well I wasn't trying to get at that, that he would miss the shot. I was asking about things like playoff games that he hit the winning shot in. The truly great hit the clutch shots in those situations. Kobe may be a victim of opportunity there, that he hasn't been needed to make the shot. I don't know.