When has Kobe ever been clutch? You must not watch any basketball.

 

For the first bolded part Original Rookie already has the perfect response to that.

 

Second bolded part, you think 81 points is no big deal? You make it sound like it was such an easy thing to do. I really think if MJ could have done it, then he would have made sure he did it. 81 points is just a really hard thing to do, and not as easy as you seem to make it out to be. Lebron could not have done it at this point of his career, and even though I love Wade neither could he... I can't believe you are talking to me about saying their is more to the game than scoring. Have you not been reading about what I have been saying? I have been saying that exact same thing on here, when talking about Lebrons supporting cast is not as bad as you all make it out to me. It hasn't been that bad the last few years. Yeah he didn't have any other real top scorers with him, but he played on one of the best defensive teams in the league for the last few years. Which is perfect setup for a star player. So his supporting cast is good, it just comes on the defensive side of the ball. I have said that a few times now, and you try to still tell me that there is more to the game than just scoring? I mean wow, I have been saying that all thread. As I said before I hate Kobe, I hate him more than anyone in the league. However I will give credit where credit is due, and that 81 point game was amazing. Also he is the best clutch player in the NBA. I will also add in that at end of games Wade is also more clutch than Lebron. That is still the one thing missing from Lebrons game, even though I will admit he is getting better at it.

 

I'd say I watch as much basketball as just about anyone on here. Before you say something smart about that, I SAID that I PROBABLY watch as much basketball as anyone else. 81 points is a great accomplishment, it's just not the "end all be all" of sports like some people act like it is. He was in the zone and played great. But, still it was a meaningless game, not clutch. So what if the Lakers were getting beat by the Raptors. Like I said, if you want to call Kobe more clutch than LeBron, you'll have to give examples. I will concede DWade for now, he won a championship pretty much by himself. And LeBron won't ever have 81, his game will not call for him to take that many shots. But, if he did/does, I guarantee he would have more than two assist. Once again what are some signature Kobe moments?

Please don't list 81 points or the alley-oop to Shaq they've already been mentioned.

The Mamba, TO ME, is the most overrated player in the history of the league. To compare him to MJ is blasphemy, and I think it is a slap in the face to Magic, Oscar, and Wilt to go ahead and put him up there. Kobe has built his own hype, with that "better than you attitude", his obsession with bettering MJ (changing his number to 24 was pathetic), he is one of the great scorers of NBA history but so is Allen Iverson. What makes Kobe great? He makes you think he is. Who has he ever made better? Don't give me Bynum. His predraft projection was that he could possibly evolve into a Baby-Shaq.

 

LBJ's supporting cast fits him, but like I said the only really talented player he has is Mo. The rest are either old and slow (Big Z, Wally, Joe Smith), or undrafted (Gibson), or strictly role players ( D West, Varajao, Big Ben Wallace, others). Who out of that group is a legit NBA starter? D West maybe. No one else anymore. I don't want to hear Big Z, because I watch him about two times a week and he can barely move up and down the floor. The James Gang is suited for his game because he has tough, hard-nosed post players and spot up shooters. Defensively, they are good, but that has a lot to do with LeBron.

 

PurplePride this wasn't directed at you man. I think the points you made are good valid arguments. We all know our biases, like I will tell people Ken Dorsey was the greatest college QB of this era, though I know he probably wasn't.

I'd say I watch as much basketball as just about anyone on here. Before you say something smart about that, I SAID that I PROBABLY watch as much basketball as anyone else. 81 points is a great accomplishment, it's just not the "end all be all" of sports like some people act like it is. He was in the zone and played great. But, still it was a meaningless game, not clutch. So what if the Lakers were getting beat by the Raptors. Like I said, if you want to call Kobe more clutch than LeBron, you'll have to give examples. I will concede DWade for now, he won a championship pretty much by himself. And LeBron won't ever have 81, his game will not call for him to take that many shots. But, if he did/does, I guarantee he would have more than two assist. Once again what are some signature Kobe moments?

Please don't list 81 points or the alley-oop to Shaq they've already been mentioned.

The Mamba, TO ME, is the most overrated player in the history of the league. To compare him to MJ is blasphemy, and I think it is a slap in the face to Magic, Oscar, and Wilt to go ahead and put him up there. Kobe has built his own hype, with that "better than you attitude", his obsession with bettering MJ (changing his number to 24 was pathetic), he is one of the great scorers of NBA history but so is Allen Iverson. What makes Kobe great? He makes you think he is. Who has he ever made better? Don't give me Bynum. His predraft projection was that he could possibly evolve into a Baby-Shaq.

 

LBJ's supporting cast fits him, but like I said the only really talented player he has is Mo. The rest are either old and slow (Big Z, Wally, Joe Smith), or undrafted (Gibson), or strictly role players ( D West, Varajao, Big Ben Wallace, others). Who out of that group is a legit NBA starter? D West maybe. No one else anymore. I don't want to hear Big Z, because I watch him about two times a week and he can barely move up and down the floor. The James Gang is suited for his game because he has tough, hard-nosed post players and spot up shooters. Defensively, they are good, but that has a lot to do with LeBron.

 

PurplePride this wasn't directed at you man. I think the points you made are good valid arguments. We all know our biases, like I will tell people Ken Dorsey was the greatest college QB of this era, though I know he probably wasn't.

 

I have to disagree on that one. Kobe is a great player, one of the best ever. He deserves the accolades he has received. And, he is a clutch player. Clutch involves more than one shot at the end of a game. Kobe is a great finisher of games, which includes more than the last 30 seconds. He hits a lot of big shots down the stretch of games to keep the Lakers out in front. That's clutch.

Lebron took Boston to the brink in the playoffs last season...and would have probably eliminated them if he hadn't missed a shot from 3 feet.

 

Kobe took a better supporting cast and couldn't make it interesting vs. Boston.

 

Lebron is better.[/QUOTE]

 

That pretty much sums up what I think.

Lebron took Boston to the brink in the playoffs last season...and would have probably eliminated them if he hadn't missed a shot from 3 feet.

 

Kobe took a better supporting cast and couldn't make it interesting vs. Boston.

 

Lebron is better.

 

 

I wish LeBron would have made the shot from 3 feet, the Lakers would have beat the Cavs. For the record, Kobe wouldn't miss a shot from 3 feet if the playoff series depended on it.

 

IMO, there was no team in the NBA better than Boston last year, regardless of the supporting cast Kobe or LeBron had. Not to mention that the familiarity that Boston and Cleveland have with one another from playing each other 3 or 4 times in the regular season makes a difference. I don't think that how one's team did in a playoff series last year is a true determining factor of who is better.

 

If the Lakers beat the Cavs in the Finals this year, does Kobe automatically become better than LeBron?

Neither is as good as my man, Earl "The Goat" Manigoat.

I wish LeBron would have made the shot from 3 feet, the Lakers would have beat the Cavs. For the record, Kobe wouldn't miss a shot from 3 feet if the playoff series depended on it.

 

IMO, there was no team in the NBA better than Boston last year, regardless of the supporting cast Kobe or LeBron had. Not to mention that the familiarity that Boston and Cleveland have with one another from playing each other 3 or 4 times in the regular season makes a difference. I don't think that how one's team did in a playoff series last year is a true determining factor of who is better.

 

If the Lakers beat the Cavs in the Finals this year, does Kobe automatically become better than LeBron?

 

 

To answer your question no. If the Lakers beat the Cavs in the NBA Finals then it means that the Lakers were better than the Cavs, not Kobe was better than Lebron. I guess by that logic then Glen Davis is the best player in the NBA since the Celtics won the title last year and beat both Lebron & Kobe in the process.

 

And for you to say that Kobe would not have missed a 3 foot shot to win a series, FOR THE RECORD, is ridiculous. You have no way of proving that point.

To answer your question no. If the Lakers beat the Cavs in the NBA Finals then it means that the Lakers were better than the Cavs, not Kobe was better than Lebron. I guess by that logic then Glen Davis is the best player in the NBA since the Celtics won the title last year and beat both Lebron & Kobe in the process.

 

And for you to say that Kobe would not have missed a 3 foot shot to win a series, FOR THE RECORD, is ridiculous. You have no way of proving that point.

 

If you go back and look at the previous posts you will see that I am answering other posts that appear to imply that LeBron is better than Kobe because the Cavs played Boston better in the playoffs than the Lakers did. I agree with your logic. My question was meant for those using the Glen Davis logic, not you.

 

Call it ridiculous all you want. Kobe is the most prolific scorer in the NBA right now and when it comes to scoring points when they are needed I am taking Kobe over LeBron all day. His scoring prowess is what leads to me to believe that he wouldn't miss a 3 foot jumper with the playoff series hanging in the balance. Can I prove it, no, I can't, but I also wouldn't believe it unless I saw it happen. FOR THE RECORD I have no reason to believe he would have missed that shot.

Lebron took Boston to the brink in the playoffs last season...and would have probably eliminated them if he hadn't missed a shot from 3 feet.

 

Kobe took a better supporting cast and couldn't make it interesting vs. Boston.

 

Lebron is better.[/QUOTE]

 

That pretty much sums up what I think.

 

:laugh:

 

Those are your words, correct? 5Wide made the original statement and you appear to be agreeing with his reasoning on why LeBron is better. I am not even the originator of the Glen Davis logic.

I wish LeBron would have made the shot from 3 feet, the Lakers would have beat the Cavs. For the record, Kobe wouldn't miss a shot from 3 feet if the playoff series depended on it.

 

IMO, there was no team in the NBA better than Boston last year, regardless of the supporting cast Kobe or LeBron had. Not to mention that the familiarity that Boston and Cleveland have with one another from playing each other 3 or 4 times in the regular season makes a difference. I don't think that how one's team did in a playoff series last year is a true determining factor of who is better.

 

If the Lakers beat the Cavs in the Finals this year, does Kobe automatically become better than LeBron?

 

 

 

My bolded statement is where I thought I stated this clearly.

I have to disagree on that one. Kobe is a great player, one of the best ever. He deserves the accolades he has received. And, he is a clutch player. Clutch involves more than one shot at the end of a game. Kobe is a great finisher of games, which includes more than the last 30 seconds. He hits a lot of big shots down the stretch of games to keep the Lakers out in front. That's clutch.

 

Ah, 5wide you can't put words in my mouth. I said he was a great player, I just think that his self-made hype allowed him to be in the Jordan discussion, when I don't think you could even say he is better than Magic, Oscar, or Wilt. Can anyone please justify ranking Kobe ahead of any of these players? If we're going to pull up stats then Wilt and Oscar are the two best in league history, though I think we all agree Jordan was the best. Mamba being compared to Jordan makes him overrated, because he can never achieve that level of greatness. It sort of makes LBJ overrated as well, but MOST of us agree that he has the potential to pass him.

Is Kobe the leagues most prolific scorer still? I don't know, LeBron will have outscored him two years in a row, and DWade looks like a one-man scoring machine.

[/b]

 

:laugh:

 

Those are your words, correct? 5Wide made the original statement and you appear to be agreeing with his reasoning on why LeBron is better. I am not even the originator of the Glen Davis logic.

 

I only agree with the bolded part that Lebron was better.

Ah, 5wide you can't put words in my mouth. I said he was a great player, I just think that his self-made hype allowed him to be in the Jordan discussion, when I don't think you could even say he is better than Magic, Oscar, or Wilt. Can anyone please justify ranking Kobe ahead of any of these players? If we're going to pull up stats then Wilt and Oscar are the two best in league history, though I think we all agree Jordan was the best. Mamba being compared to Jordan makes him overrated, because he can never achieve that level of greatness. It sort of makes LBJ overrated as well, but MOST of us agree that he has the potential to pass him.

Is Kobe the leagues most prolific scorer still? I don't know, LeBron will have outscored him two years in a row, and DWade looks like a one-man scoring machine.

 

 

I say he is. LeBron came into the league physically able to score at will and was averaging 20+ points a game as soon as he entered the league. It took Kobe a year to get things going, but he did still set new scoring records along the way. LeBron has broken all of those records and will continue to do so. I say Kobe is the more profilic scorer because he scores in so many different ways, not to mention he is one of the few remaining players that is deadly with the mid range jumper. LeBron has yet to develop a jumper as consistent as Kobe's, but he will in due time.

Ah, 5wide you can't put words in my mouth. I said he was a great player, I just think that his self-made hype allowed him to be in the Jordan discussion, when I don't think you could even say he is better than Magic, Oscar, or Wilt. Can anyone please justify ranking Kobe ahead of any of these players? If we're going to pull up stats then Wilt and Oscar are the two best in league history, though I think we all agree Jordan was the best. Mamba being compared to Jordan makes him overrated, because he can never achieve that level of greatness. It sort of makes LBJ overrated as well, but MOST of us agree that he has the potential to pass him.

Is Kobe the leagues most prolific scorer still? I don't know, LeBron will have outscored him two years in a row, and DWade looks like a one-man scoring machine.

 

 

I don't recall any self made hype by Kobe. I recall many media organizations trying to tout him as the next Jordan and I recall him saying that there will never be another Jordan. Any hype about Kobe was not made by him, it was made by the media.......especially after Colorado.

There is no sure fire way to figure out who is the greatest. We all have our favorites and we all will stick to our guns. I will say what I have always said.

 

Kobe is better than LeBron, today.

 

In a year or two, LeBron will take that title and quite honestly I think LeBron if he stays healthy has more potential than anyone to become the greatest ever.

 

 

I will also say that Kobe does belong in the Jordan discussion. The fact that Jordan was the most entertaining basketball player ever, doesn't automatically take everyone else out of the discussion when it comes to ability on the court. Just because Jordan revolutionized the game doesn't make him the best. But again, we all have our choices as to who we think the best is.

 

 

I'd take Magic over all of them......then Kobe next:D

I'd say I watch as much basketball as just about anyone on here. Before you say something smart about that, I SAID that I PROBABLY watch as much basketball as anyone else. 81 points is a great accomplishment, it's just not the "end all be all" of sports like some people act like it is. He was in the zone and played great. But, still it was a meaningless game, not clutch. So what if the Lakers were getting beat by the Raptors. Like I said, if you want to call Kobe more clutch than LeBron, you'll have to give examples. I will concede DWade for now, he won a championship pretty much by himself. And LeBron won't ever have 81, his game will not call for him to take that many shots. But, if he did/does, I guarantee he would have more than two assist. Once again what are some signature Kobe moments?

Please don't list 81 points or the alley-oop to Shaq they've already been mentioned.

The Mamba, TO ME, is the most overrated player in the history of the league. To compare him to MJ is blasphemy, and I think it is a slap in the face to Magic, Oscar, and Wilt to go ahead and put him up there. Kobe has built his own hype, with that "better than you attitude", his obsession with bettering MJ (changing his number to 24 was pathetic), he is one of the great scorers of NBA history but so is Allen Iverson. What makes Kobe great? He makes you think he is. Who has he ever made better? Don't give me Bynum. His predraft projection was that he could possibly evolve into a Baby-Shaq.

 

LBJ's supporting cast fits him, but like I said the only really talented player he has is Mo. The rest are either old and slow (Big Z, Wally, Joe Smith), or undrafted (Gibson), or strictly role players ( D West, Varajao, Big Ben Wallace, others). Who out of that group is a legit NBA starter? D West maybe. No one else anymore. I don't want to hear Big Z, because I watch him about two times a week and he can barely move up and down the floor. The James Gang is suited for his game because he has tough, hard-nosed post players and spot up shooters. Defensively, they are good, but that has a lot to do with LeBron.

 

PurplePride this wasn't directed at you man. I think the points you made are good valid arguments. We all know our biases, like I will tell people Ken Dorsey was the greatest college QB of this era, though I know he probably wasn't.

 

Please tell me how you could consider Lebron more clutch than Kobe? Their has been more well known times of Lebron blowing it, rather than winning it for his team at end of games. That one game against the Pistons Lebron was GREAT, we all admit that. However if you compare the two guys for the 4th quarters of games and especially within the final 3 minutes. I bet you 80 percent of people in America would say they rather have Kobe at the end of the game rather than Lebron. The 20 percent who probably would choose lebron would be the guys who are just more bias to Lebron because of him being one of their favorite players. Kobe is a guy most people hate, including me. So most people will just use their bias if they pick Lebron because they hate Kobe. Kobe in regular season games, and in playoff games have came up with the daggers to put teams away. Lebron in both regular season and playoff games, has missed most of his chances to put games away. Yeah he has had a few where he has actually finished it. But for people who have watched basketball through the years, they will admit it seems like anytime Kobe has the ball in a close game at the end, he ends up making the shot. He hardly ever misses the shot when they need it. Lebron has missed on the shot plenty of times, and has passed up the shot as well. I mean there is really no comparison here in who is more clutch. Definitely no argument for Lebron in this category yet. Lebron has probably move passed Kobe now in who is the better player overall, but Kobe still beats him when it comes to crunch time. When it comes down to an end of the game and needing a guy to win it for you or seal the deal, Kobe is the best choice still. Then as I said before Wade might be the next guy behind him. Wade has been making game winning shots ever since his rookie year, when he made the game winning shot for his team in the playoffs. I don't get why we are even arguing this who is more clutch.