Sack or tackle for a loss

[MBWC41]

If a quarterback is tackled behind the line of scrimmage on a designed run play is it considered a sack or a tackle for a loss ?

[Ram]

Anytime a QB is tackled behind the line of scrimmage, or runs out of bounds behind the the line of scrimmage, the play is classified as a sack. Also, intent. grouding is classified as a sack.

[TheDeuce]

Welcome to the site, Ram! :ylsuper:

[PutMeInCoach]

I don't like that rule.

[westsider]

Anytime a QB is tackled behind the line of scrimmage, or runs out of bounds behind the the line of scrimmage, the play is classified as a sack.

I'm not sure that is correct.

[Ram]

Welcome to the site, Ram! :ylsuper:

 

Thank you. During the off season I have to het my fix of HS football somehow

[Ram]

I'm not sure that is correct.

 

Not to argue, but.

http://www.firstbasesports.com/football_glossary.html#sack

"Sack - a tackle of the QB behind his line of scrimmage."

 

http://www.ducksoftware.com/footballterms.html

"Sack - when a QB is tackled behind the line of scrimmage"

"Intentional Grounding - a penelty whenthe QB purposely throws an incomplete pass just to avoid a sack."

 

http://football.abou.com/cs/football/g/gl_sack.html

"Sack - any tackle of the QB behind the line of scrimmage."

 

The sack is a stat, not a rule, so it is not in any rule book (I looked). It was not coined until 1982, by Deacon Jones. So it is somewhat new, in the grander scheme of things. Intentional grounding is performed to avoid a sack so the NFL, and I would assume, college and HS credit the defensive team with a sack, not an indivisual. Running out of bounds behind the line of scrimage is to avoid a sack as well, so again a sack (NFL) is credited to the team, not an indivisual.

 

I hope this helps. If anyone else has additional information, or corrections please help.

[True blue (and gold)]

Sounds good, Ram. I agree.

 

Welcome to the site! There are several of us that need our football "fix" in the off-season!

[strike-3]

Not to argue, but.

http://www.firstbasesports.com/football_glossary.html#sack

"Sack - a tackle of the QB behind his line of scrimmage."

 

http://www.ducksoftware.com/footballterms.html

"Sack - when a QB is tackled behind the line of scrimmage"

"Intentional Grounding - a penelty whenthe QB purposely throws an incomplete pass just to avoid a sack."

 

http://football.abou.com/cs/football/g/gl_sack.html

"Sack - any tackle of the QB behind the line of scrimmage."

 

The sack is a stat, not a rule, so it is not in any rule book (I looked). It was not coined until 1982, by Deacon Jones. So it is somewhat new, in the grander scheme of things. Intentional grounding is performed to avoid a sack so the NFL, and I would assume, college and HS credit the defensive team with a sack, not an indivisual. Running out of bounds behind the line of scrimage is to avoid a sack as well, so again a sack (NFL) is credited to the team, not an indivisual.

 

I hope this helps. If anyone else has additional information, or corrections please help.

 

The sites that you have linked to are a little too simplistic as to their defination of a sack. Saying that any tackle of a QB behind the line of scrimmage is a sack would be incorrect. First of all a sack can only be credited if the offensive play was intended to be a passing play. For example, a QB tackled behind the line of scrimmage while running a QB sneak, QB draw, bootleg, or an option play would not result in a sack being credited. Second, a defensive player would received credit for a sack of any player while attempting to pass, not just a QB. Finally, at least as it pertains to NCAA football, their are no team sacks. Any play resulting in a QB scrambling out of bounds for a loss, or intentionally grounding, a sack will be credited to the defensive player, who in the mind of the official scorer forced the situation.

 

If you need any additional explanation the following link should answer any and all questions regarding the official scoring of sacks per the NCAA

 

NCAA Statisticians Manual

 

As far as the NFL, I do not believe that you are correct in that an intentionally grounding penalty results in a QB sack or that running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage would either.

 

I'll have to get back to you with my proof, but I know that the NFL and the NCAA do treat QB sacks differently in these aspects.

 

In the NCAA a QB who is sacked will be credited with a rushing attempt and negative rushing yards. The yards lost due to the sack would be reflected in the teams rushing totals.

 

In the NFL a QB who is sacked is not credited with a rushing attempt and the yards lost are reflected in the teams total passing yards.

[strike-3]

With regard to the NFL this is the best that I can do tonight.

 

Tampa Bucs website Q&A section

 

5. Luca Pasculli of Wilderen, Belgium asks:

 

Yo answer man

When I was playing on Madden I was asking myself some questions. Like if a quarterback goes down behind the line of scrimmage with the ball, is that always a sack? And which no. of draft pick do we have this year? Thank you oh knowledgeful one.

 

Answer Man: I haven’t run it yet, but I don’t think “knowledgeful” is going to pass the Spell Check. Still, it was a nice thing to say, Luca.

 

That being said, I think most NFL fans could answer that first question, and most Buc fans could fill you in on the second. But it’s my job, not theirs, so here goes.

 

No, it is not a sack every time the quarterback is tackled behind the line of scrimmage. Most of the time, but not always. The determining factor is whether or not it was a designed passing play or not on which the tackle occurred.

If a quarterback drops back to pass and is tackled, then yes, that is a sack. However, if he were to, say, try to sneak it over the middle and get hit two yards behind the line, that would just be a tackle. Or a tackle-for-loss to be specific, though neither is an official NFL statistic, as we discussed at some length in Volume 19 in December of 2004.

 

That latter play is a running play by the quarterback, and no sack can be awarded on a running play. Also, there are no sacks on aborted plays. That is, if the quarterback fumbles the snap and has to fall on it, and is then touched down by a defender, that is not a sack, even if the play was going to be a pass attempt.

If the quarterback drops back to pass and finds no one open, the starts to scramble around the end to avoid the pass-rushers, that is still a passing play. If a defender gets him down before or at the line of scrimmage, it will be a sack. The only confusion comes when the statistics crew in the press box is unsure whether a play was designed to be a run or a pass.

 

This comes into play most often when one of the teams has a quarterback who is a gifted runner, like Atlanta’s Michael Vick. The Falcons clearly have designed runs for Vick in the playbook, even some out of the shotgun. On one play during the Falcons’ visit to Tampa last December, Vick took a shotgun snap and a Buccaneer blitzer was allowed to run in unabated from the right side. Vick then ran around left end. The stat crew might have interpreted that as the blitzer forcing Vick to give up on the pass and scramble, but in fact this play was a designed run.

 

These decisions can be appealed after the game, too. There was a memorable play during the Bucs’ Super Bowl season in which safety John Howell dragged Vick down for a loss on what appeared to be a sack on a perfectly-timed blitz. In fact, however, Vick was about to try to run the ball around the right side (and he would have had a lot of open field had Howell not hung on).

 

The play looked like a sack and was ruled one by the stat crew in the Buccaneers’ press box. However, the Falcons’ coaching staff alerted the Elias Sports Bureau on Monday that the play was supposed to be a run and thus Howell’s tackle was changed to be just that, a tackle. Elias, the NFL’s official statistics service, doesn’t just take a team’s word for it on these occasions, however. There are a variety of cues that one can look for when watching a play on film to determine whether it was going to be a run or a pass, most notably the early movements of the offensive linemen. If they are dropping back onto their heels and waiting for contact, it was probably going to be a passing play. If they were surging forward at the snap, it was probably going to be a running play.

[strike-3]

As per intentionally grounding.

 

Atlanta Falcons website Q&A

 

Q: Ahh, the obligatory fantasy football question. This oen comes from Jim: "I had the Atlanta defense in my Fantasy Football playoff game against the New Orleans Saints on Monday Night Football. Intentional Grounding was called twice on Aaron Brooks, Why wouldn't it count as a sack? The penalty gave the result of the sack, and it was called because of avoiding a sack. I lost the game by 1.5 points and could have used the points for the potential sacks."

A: Sorry, Jim. I, too, and a big proponent of fantasy sports, but that doesn't change the fact that the NFL's rules, when you look at it objectively, make a whole lot of sense.

 

 

As you so observantly point out, the result of both of Brooks' intentional grounding penalties is the same as any intentional grounding penalty: the ball is placed at the spot of the infraction, and the offense loses a down as well.

 

 

But the fact of the matter is, the NFL cannot award statistics in a game based on what would have happened, had an infraction not have been committed.

 

 

This is how I reason it: A sack cannot be awarded to a defender a sack when a quarterback grounds a ball because the defender did not actually sack the quarterback.

 

 

Along that same vein, a reception, receiving yards, a completion and passing yards cannot be awarded to a receiver and quarterback when a receiver is interfered with by a defender -- because the receiver does not make the catch and gain the yards.

 

 

Sorry that hurt you in the fantasy standings, but I've got to side with the NFL on this one.

 

[Pete W]

This is from the Arena guide for statisticians, I have an NFL stat guide but it is a hardcopy and is from the late 90's.

In passing statistics there is a category called “sacks and yards lost attempting to pass.” It shall be determined by the following rules:

 

1. When the quarterback or a teammate, makes an apparent attempt to pass at anytime before he or a teammate is tackled, steps out of bounds, or fumbles behind or at the statistical line of scrimmage, the play is scored as a sack and any yards lost attempting to pass. (Should he advance the ball across the statistical line of scrimmage, it is a rushing play.)

2. When the quarterback is tackled or, after gaining possession of the snap, he fumbles or falls down, while retreating to his normal passing position, it shall be scored as a sack and yards lost attempting to pass, even though he may not have assumed a passing position. EXCEPTION: When a player retreating to passing position fumbles behind the line of scrimmage but recovers the fumble himself and runs beyond the statistical line of scrimmage, the play is scored as a rushing play, a fumble, and an own recovery.

EXAMPLE 1.: Second-and-1 at own 20-yard line. Quarterback, back to pass, fumbles the ball while standing in the pocket, without any defensive contact. He recovers at the 13. Scoring: One sack and 7 yards lost, a fumble, and an own recovery.

EXAMPLE 2.: Second-and-1 at own 20-yard line. Quarterback takes snap, then while retreating to pass, fumbles. Ball rolls to 10, and then is batted back to the 5, where a player recovers and is downed. Scoring: Charge one sack and 10 yards lost (to point of first batting). The other 5 yards are the result of a loose ball.

EXAMPLE 3.: Third-and-25 at own 10-yard line. Quarterback fumbles snap on what appears to be a definite passing down. He recovers at the 5. Scoring: An aborted play; quarterback gets one rush for no yards, a fumble, an own recovery, and minus 5 (fumble yardage) yards.

3. When a quarterback rolls out, or a player other than the quarterback handles the ball on an option play, or takes the snap in a “shotgun” formation, and makes an apparent attempt to pass before being tackled or stepping out of bounds behind or at the statistical line of scrimmage, it shall be scored as a sack and any yards lost attempting to pass. If the player makes no apparent attempt to pass, the play shall be considered a rushing play.

4. Once a player carries the ball beyond the statistical line of scrimmage, there shall not be a sack scored on that play, even if he or a teammate eventually retreats behind the line and is tackled or fumbles there.

5. The individual passer shall not be charged with an attempted forward pass, or yardage lost, when the play is scored as a sack. However, the yardage lost on such plays MUST be deducted from his team’s gross passing yardage to reflect net yards gained passing.

EXAMPLE 1.: First and 10 on the A 20, Team A’s possession. A-12 completes a screen pass to A-20, who is tackled at the A 18. B-98 is charged with a Roughing the Passer penalty. Scoring: Penalty for 10 yards, no pass completion or receiving yards. If A-12 had traveled beyond the line of scrimmage, then the pass completion would count as the penalty would be enforced from the dead ball spot. The pass does not count if A-20 is tackled at the line of scrimmage.

 

For fumbles on passing and sack plays, see Fumbles section.

SACKS (DEFENSIVE)

 

Credit a sack to the appropriate defensive player whenever a sack is scored against the offensive team, subject to the following principles:

 

1. When the player making an apparent attempt to pass is tackled or downed at or behind the statistical line of scrimmage, credit a sack to the defensive player who tackled or downed the potential passer. EXCEPTION: If the potential passer fumbles before contact by the defense, no sack is credited to any individual defensive player. However, credit the defensive team with a sack. The number of defensive sacks should be equal to the number of offensive sacks.

2. When the player making an apparent attempt to pass steps out of bounds at or behind the statistical line of scrimmage in order to avoid imminent contact with a defensive player, credit that defensive player with a sack. If the potential passer steps out of bounds without the pressure of such imminent contact, no sack is credited to any individual defensive player. When one defensive player is primarily responsible for a sack, as defined by the foregoing principles, he shall receive credit for a sack. When two or more defensive players are adjudged by the official scorer to be equally responsible for a sack, credit for the sack shall be divided equally between or among the responsible defensive players.

EXAMPLE 1.: Second-and-10 at midfield. In retreating to pass, quarterback fumbles the ball without having been touched by a defender, and recovers at his own 20, where he is downed by the defensive tackle. Scoring: A sack for 5 yards, but no individual defensive player is credited with the sack.

EXAMPLE 2.: Second-and-10 at midfield. Quarterback, trying to pass, eludes defensive tackles rush and, at his own 15, runs up field toward sidelines. At his own 22, pursued by the defensive tackle, he goes out of bounds before he can be hit by a linebacker, who is charging toward the quarterback from his down-field position, and who was about to stop the quarterback’s advance, should he have remained in-bounds. Scoring: A sack for three yards; credit the sack to the linebacker, for it was because of imminent contact with him that the quarterback elected to run out of bounds. (The pursuing defensive tackle has already been eluded by the quarterback.)