Heroin - NKY

[Birdsfan]

These people are at a stage where it takes shooting up or snorting

heroin to feel normal or avoid withdrawal.

Very true. It gets to the point where you're doing the drug just to feel better. But the cycle continues to the point where you're in worse shape after you get your fix than you were before you got it. At that point, like you said, it's an endless downward spiral ending in death...unless you can get treatment and climb out of the hole.

[TTS_JF]

I've seen this scenario play out too many times. Alot of times people get clean for

2-3 weeks and then you don't see them for a couple days and next thing you know there

right back to step 1.

[B-Ball-fan]

That's because you don't have an addictive personality, you're not an addict and you don't understand the toll it takes on someone that is. As Birdsfan points out, it often starts out innocently enough, with prescription meds, sometimes just as simple as alcohol. Then it moves on to the next level and the next. These people are not themselves after a certain point. They truly and honestly can't stop themselves. I've seen it firsthand in my family with a relative that has had problems for quite some time and with family of friends. It's a horrible, dangerous and destructive path they're on and they simply can't control themselves. Sad how drug abuse destroys relationships, families and lives.

 

I promise that I'm not trying to insult anyone, but this one line jumped out at me. It does appear that this is society's perception, so I'm not faulting you for being a product of that perception.

 

Not everyone goes down the tubes with, or becomes addicted to alcohol, and some can be careful and responsible with it. However, for as many folks whose lives, the lives of their families, and the lives of innocent motorists have been ruined, alcohol is much considered a casual beverage that can be seen advertised practically everywhere, and because it's legal, it tends to get a pass card during the "harms of drugs" discussion.

 

I'm not suggesting that alcohol should be illegal, but there's one substance that tends to get grouped with the "street drugs" talk that is slowly finding itself to be legalized in a few states, that has suffered a bad reputation, and has been perceived for years as bad, even by those drowning in their suds.

 

Most who have tried both alcohol and this substance, find this substance to be a far safer option, as it doesn't give them hangovers, doesn't make them more intoxicated, or increase impairment if consumed abundantly, as the more one drinks, the drunker they get. This substance's additive properties are non-existent and are merely psychological, just as people who like pizza tend to eat pizza more than once in their lives, people who enjoy this substance tend to want it again because of the joy it brings them. There's likely to be harm done to a user of this substance to their lungs, but with that said, it's unlikely that they will smoke in a days time as much as smokers of the legal drug called tobacco, which actually has been proven to be addictive and harmful.

 

I guess that it's obvious that I'm drawing attention here to what I, and many others consider to be an illogical double standard by society with regard to this substance and the perception of it compared to the legal substances called alcohol and tobacco.

 

For the record, I've done both casually over the years, and next to never do either anymore. If both were legal and I was offered a choice between the two at a social gathering, I'd leave the alcohol alone for sure, and reach for the one that has been mostly misrepresented and misunderstood, because personally I know better which one gives me less trouble. My preoccupation with both was part of my youth, and I've come to a place in my life where I'm content staying straight and sober, as ultimately I'm more relaxed with operating through life without the altering of my perception that the usage of a foreign substance will bring.

 

I've seen some parents take a "that's my boy", "chip off the old block" attitude in relationship to their high school or college aged kids drinking, but freak out if they thought that they had smoked pot. I do not have children, but if I did, I wouldn't encourage the usage of either, but would certainly freak more if I knew my kid was drinking. When a kid reaches college age, parents tend to lose a bit of their influence over their kids, as the pier group tends to have a stronger effect. I wouldn't want my kid to do either, but I'd rather my kid subject themselves to the creative juices that can flow from marijuana usage, and perhaps find themselves in their room painting a picture, or writing a song, than to subject themselves to the harmful nowhere-villeness that alcohol can bring and risk alcoholism etc... I absolutely would freak if I knew that they were operating a vehicle on either substance.

 

Some might point at the current news item related to the Desean Peterson murder in Covington as an example of how the pot culture magnifies the ills of marijuana. I assure you that these kids would not paint this picture of the pot culture this way if pot was legal. They're not writing rap song after rap song about alcohol. They fiend on the illegal in their lives and because pot is illegal it's an easy "go to" when trying to look like they are bad tough rebels. They essentially give marijuana a bad name as so does the fact that it's illegal. If it were legal, these kids would be rapping about something else that's illegal. If pot were legal would Desean be alive? Probably not, because their illegal drug of choice would be something else and they'd still surround themselves with the street badness preoccupation that they do.

 

As this thread is really about heroin, I'll briefly shift to that drug and mention that as far back as the inception of this thread, and a few more times, I've tried to shed light on how the drug is making its way into the country, and how I believe that stopping its entrance should be first and foremost the goal. Only one person on this board has appeared to take notice of that, while everyone else is looking at the users and local dealers as the problem. I liken that to a leak in a one's roof and where laying buckets around to catch the water is the only solution, rather than to find the leak and seal it, ultimately putting an end to the problem. The locals here take the heat, while there are bigger fat cats in this story getting fatter and fatter while going unnoticed. How that illogical phenomenon keeps being perpetrated is beyond me. I'm not suggesting that the local problem not be addressed, but I'll bet my life savings that it'll never stop until we address the culprit of the issue.

[Birdsfan]

B-Ball-Fan - I understand that you have a pro-marijuana agenda and that it has shaped your reasoning a bit, but there are some errors in your remarks which need to be addressed. First of all, you've chosen to point your finger at Run to State as if he has no appreciation for the dangers of alcohol. Oh, how badly mistaken you are! I would venture to guess that there are but only a few members of BGP who have been more bitterly affected by someone who abused that particular substance.

 

Now, as to your comments about marijuana, I'm afraid there is some misinformation there as well. Marijuana is a drug just like any other. It can cause people to do things which lead to death just as easily as alcohol or other drug. It can lead a person into drug dependency just as easily as alcohol, pills or anything else. It's a first step...and when it stops being satisfying, the user often moves up the ladder. Heavy use of marijuana produces cognitive impairments that make it difficult to learn new material. This is an especially troubling issue, given the age group that is most likely to use. Also, the most recent evidence shows that 25% of people carry a gene that gives them a 10.9-fold chance of developing schizophrenia if they use marijuana. It's not candy. It's not tobacco. It is a psychoactive drug with REAL dangers.

 

As to the discussion of heroin, we can't do much about the alleged international conspiracy theories. All we can do is deal with the problem here at home. We have to treat those who are affected, try to limit the supply, and work to make heroin less tempting to those who might fall into its trap. Heroin is pervasive in NKY right now and there's no end in sight. There certainly aren't any easy solutions. And has anyone heard of the new Heroin alternative coming out of Russia, called "Krokodil?" It was meant as a cheaper alternative to Heroin, but what it does is travel around the body and eat a person up, from the inside out. You talk about scary!

 

This past couple weeks, as part of my training in addiction counseling, I've had the opportunity to attend several Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. I listened to addicts tell their stories. I heard them talk about how it was not, they who were using the drugs, but the drugs that were using them. They talked about how easy it was to slip into dependency -- sometimes without even seeing it coming. For most of them, drugs became their best friend. In truth, it was their ONLY friend and they would sell out their mothers to maintain that friendship. Giving up their drug of choice was like suffering a death in the family. The only difference is, the ghost is still out there, and it calls to them every day. The weekly meetings, and the support system that comes with them are the only protection they have from falling back into the hole they crawled out from.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Birdsfan

[B-Ball-fan]

B-Ball-Fan - I understand that you have a pro-marijuana agenda and that it has shaped your reasoning a bit, but there are some errors in your remarks which need to be addressed. First of all, you've chosen to point your finger at Run to State as if he has no appreciation for the dangers of alcohol. Oh, how badly mistaken you are! I would venture to guess that there are but only a few members of BGP who have been more bitterly affected by someone who abused that particular substance.

 

Now, as to your comments about marijuana, I'm afraid there is some misinformation there as well. Marijuana is a drug just like any other. It can cause people to do things which lead to death just as easily as alcohol or other drug. It can lead a person into drug dependency just as easily as alcohol, pills or anything else. It's a first step...and when it stops being satisfying, the user often moves up the ladder. Heavy use of marijuana produces cognitive impairments that make it difficult to learn new material. This is an especially troubling issue, given the age group that is most likely to use. Also, the most recent evidence shows that 25% of people carry a gene that gives them a 10.9-fold chance of developing schizophrenia if they use marijuana. It's not candy. It's not tobacco. It is a psychoactive drug with REAL dangers.

As to the discussion of heroin, we can't do much about the alleged international conspiracy theories. All we can do is deal with the problem here at home. We have to treat those who are affected, try to limit the supply, and work to make heroin less tempting to those who might fall into its trap. Heroin is pervasive in NKY right now and there's no end in sight. There certainly aren't any easy solutions. And has anyone heard of the new Heroin alternative coming out of Russia, called "Krokodil?" It was meant as a cheaper alternative to Heroin, but what it does is travel around the body and eat a person up, from the inside out. You talk about scary!

 

This past couple weeks, as part of my training in addiction counseling, I've had the opportunity to attend several Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. I listened to addicts tell their stories. I heard them talk about how it was not, they who were using the drugs, but the drugs that were using them. They talked about how easy it was to slip into dependency -- sometimes without even seeing it coming. For most of them, drugs became their best friend. In truth, it was their ONLY friend and they would sell out their mothers to maintain that friendship. Giving up their drug of choice was like suffering a death in the family. The only difference is, the ghost is still out there, and it calls to them every day. The weekly meetings, and the support system that comes with them are the only protection they have from falling back into the hole they crawled out from.

 

1. As I had prefaced my comment stating that "I promise that I'm not trying to insult anyone, but this one line jumped out at me. It does appear that this is society's perception, so I'm not faulting you for being a product of that perception.", it was not meant as a singling out of "Run to State" as much as it was directing attention to how alcohol tends not to be viewed as serious as other drugs, which I do not believe that I'm dreaming when I'm seeing society's perception of that considering how we have "Brew Fests" all over the country, alcohol in every store, commercials during every sporting event, tailgate parties before sporting events etc etc etc...

 

2. My agenda is not so much a pro-marijuana agenda as much as it is directing attention to the illogical double standard and misguided casual acceptance of one, and the critical perception of the other, especially when the other is not nearly as dangerous as the casually socially accepted.

 

3. I've no doubt that even though alcohol is socially accepted that those folks illy affected by it know too well that the perception by the general public is too casual.

 

4. I stated that I would not want anyone to drive a vehicle on either alcohol or marijuana. Just as we promote a designated driver, I would expect the same if marijuana were legal.

 

5. I honestly have never met a user of marijuana that has thought it to "cease to be satisfying". I've known many, including myself who were content with it so much that they had no desire to move up a ladder to anything else. I've known no one to physically ache for it or experience withdrawal, and they treasure it because it does not cause them the issues that addictive type drugs do. Are there folks who use marijuana and do climb a ladder to more harmful drugs. I'm sure that there are, just as users of legal alcohol do. I don't believe that's marijuana's fault as it is the addictive nature of the person that chooses to try other stuff. How come marijuana gets the rap of being a gateway drug, but typically alcohol does not, and alcohol is the more harmful and potentially addictive of the two? Are we as a society fooled by our perception that since it's legal, it's not the gateway drug?

 

6. I casually smoked marijuana over a period of 30 years starting in my teens more frequently, and carried excellent marks in school with perfect attendance all 4 years of high school. In my computer programming course in tech school at the age of 18 the entire class was baffled for weeks of just what the instructor was getting at when introducing us to COBOL programming. Before class one day I smoked, and during that high, I had my breakthrough, and could see clearly what the teacher was saying which excited him immensely. I knew inside that my concentration had been enhanced. The rest of the class was frustrated because they still could not comprehend that which I finally could see. The teacher called me to stand in front of the class and try to explain it to them because he perhaps couldn't deliver it in a less technological fashion as I could. Little by little I began to reach the class. Some got it, those that didn't felt pressure and dropped the course since they now seriously felt that they had fallen behind.

 

After tech school, I worked in a tech field where many of the programmers were viewed as complete geniuses and were highly respected, and badly needed, and called upon to fix issues. Many of these programmers were users of marijuana and have stated to me personally that it helps them focus when attacking issues that required deep concentration.

 

7. I don't think I ever described it as candy. It's just safer than the two legally addictive drugs, tobacco and alcohol. Smokers of pot do not smoke 20 joints a day, or get higher and higher as drinkers do when they continue to drink. I honestly cannot answer to your topic of schizophrenia. It personally has not affected me that way and I don't know anyone that it has.

 

8. It's not a conspiracy theory that poppy is not grown in the midwest of the United States. I don't believe that it's grown anywhere within the United States (possibly in the Southwest?). It's no conspiracy that as heroin funnels its way from the countries where it is grown into the United States that someone is getting mega-rich before it reaches the small time local drug dealer. Considering it a bone-head conspiracy theory is in itself bone-headed when logic would suggest that it must be coming from somewhere and it's not being grown here. I did not say that we shouldn't deal with the problem here, but my leaky roof comparison should be a mouthful as to how illogical it is to ignore the root of the problem.

 

9. All the more reason to nip it from where it is coming. It's ruining lives. I've also never heard marijuana users describe the downward spiral as you described from users of heroin and alcohol. I guarantee that some of those addicts also use marijuana, but it's not marijuana's fault that those folks have addictive tendencies and graduated to stronger drugs. People graduate too from the legal drug called alcohol. Alcohol is addictive, marijuana is not, unless like I described before that people go back to it because it brought them joy as pizza lovers eat more pizza.

 

Thank you for reading my post. I see that you made great attempts to poke numerous holes right through what I've said, but with my original post and my reply, I'm sure that if you were completely honest you can see where I'm being perfectly logical and that your efforts to poke holes was merely grabbing at straws and being far too subjective with your comments. I tend to think objectively and logically, and that and subjectivity are pretty much like oil and water.

 

I realize that you sincerely would like to see an end to the heroin problem, as do I. My posts are in no way insensitive to that. Just as you would like to help, I do too, but my two cents is geared towards hoping that logic prevails in all of this, because with its absence I fear that it's all just gonna be a "chasing of our tails".

 

When folks get nudged away as conspiracy theorists, especially in this topic, it does more harm than good to get caught up with that convenient catch phrase that can make people hold their ears to the logical frightening truth. This is not about Big Foot or Alien Abductions. This is about a poppy plant grown in Afghanistan that produces a substance that makes sellers of it very wealthy and users of it very addicted, sick, and sometimes dead. If it's available, no matter how much education there is out there people will try it and become addicted. Education is not a bad thing as hopefully it will prevent it, but it's not going to be the absolute solution. Within that education, shedding light on the root of the problem is the first step in stopping the root of the problem. That's a hard fight too, but if it's not fought, then local efforts will be futile.

[Birdsfan]

Thank you for reading my post. I see that you made great attempts to poke numerous holes right through what I've said, but with my original post and my reply, I'm sure that if you were completely honest you can see where I'm being perfectly logical and that your efforts to poke holes was merely grabbing at straws and being far too subjective with your comments. I tend to think objectively and logically, and that and subjectivity are pretty much like oil and water.

I didn't have to grab at any straws; the science backs up everything I've explained here. I do appreciate your kind patronization though. :thumb:

 

While I'll give you that alcohol is a very dangerous drug in itself, and very addictive, to paint marijuana as a completely safe, mind-opening wonder plant is just ludicrous. It's the kind of bizarre thinking espoused by Timothy Leary and his type back in the 60's. And well, the whole poppy field conspiracy theory stuff is baseless and not worth the time to argue it. It simply doesn't exist.

[B-Ball-fan]

I didn't have to grab at any straws; the science backs up everything I've explained here. I do appreciate your kind patronization though. :thumb:

 

While I'll give you that alcohol is a very dangerous drug in itself, and very addictive, to paint marijuana as a completely safe, mind-opening wonder plant is just ludicrous. It's the kind of bizarre thinking espoused by Timothy Leary and his type back in the 60's. And well, the whole poppy field conspiracy theory stuff is baseless and not worth the time to argue it. It simply doesn't exist.

 

My past personal experiences with marijuana have been trouble free, and on a fun creative level has helped me focus in writing numerous songs, but I did not paint it as completely safe. I see the possible dangers to ones lungs, and I understand that you should not operate a vehicle while partaking. I made that pretty clear, but perhaps you overlooked those comments. You seem to insist on misrepresenting my thoughts. And for the 3rd time I'll echo that my biggest agenda related to the topic was to point out society's double standard related to it and alcohol. It's not a promotion for anyone to try marijuana.

 

On a side note not yet mentioned, it does help the pain of cancer patients without making them harmfully constipated as most legal pain meds do, and it helps cancer patients suffering through chemo to stimulate their appetite, which is very helpful when chemo can make patients feel very sick and lose weight rapidly. That in itself can be a life saver.

 

I'm really interested in your theory on where poppy is grown and where the heroin that locals are using is coming from. You've painted my theory as a conspiracy theory, so if my thoughts on that are baseless, I'm all ears in what your thoughts are towards that. I'm not aware that scientifically it can be grown in our climate, but perhaps you can enlighten me about that as I could be wrong. I'm also not aware of heroin surfacing out of the thin air either, but there again you might know something there that I don't. Please help me understand how what I've said about its origins are baseless. If you need sound proof of where I've said a lot of it is grown, it's a real simple google search away.

 

In relationship to my character, it's apparent that you've got me figured out to be a mindless incense burning, hookah pipe, coffee house, trippy-hippy conspiracy type. Sorry if I'm wrong about your assessment, but if it is that, that can't be further from the truth. A stranger out in public would never classify me as such, and I'm usually viewed and treated as a clean-cut ordinary well mannered individual that shows no stereotypical traits of society's perception of what constitutes a marijuana smoker (which presently I am no longer, however if it became legal I'd be likely to as I haven't written a good song in quite a while)...

 

Your knee-jerk uptightness towards my casual impression of marijuana is living proof of what I've been saying about society's misinformed brainwashed perception of marijuana. Thank you very much for helping me drive the point by being a good example of that. Years of a certain anti-attitude toward it is hard to penetrate. That's cool because it's not important to me if I do. I do however appreciate objective discourse with folks, and am not too thrilled by time and again having replies thrown back at me that attempt to twist what I've already stated. Other folks out here can read as well, so you're not fooling them or me. I know something that might help you concentrate a bit more when needing help with a clear and steady state on consciousness to allow you not to time and again keep misreading my thoughts, and to keep them sorted out properly in you mind. Just a thought. That of course is just a sarcastic statement directed towards you.

 

Real interested in hearing back on your theory of where poppy is grown. Really I am. Please don't let me down. That way I'll get a better understanding as to why you think that what I've said is conspiracy nonsense, and I'll also become more enlightened too as to the truth about its origins. Thanks.

[B-Ball-fan]

Here you go Birdsfan... I'll help you out with that quick and easy google search. Hopefully you trust Wikipedia as a reliable source...

 

There's a lot a relevant info in the first paragraph. Also, scroll to the info regarding trafficking...

 

Opium production in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

This other Wikipedia link is also interesting. Scroll to the trafficking info here as well for an interesting read...

 

Heroin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[B-Ball-fan]

Here's a good article from Forbes related to the complexities of the "catch 22" the US Military is in related to the production of Afghan poppy:

 

When The U.S. Cracks Down On Afghan Heroin, It Aids The Taliban - Forbes

[Birdsfan]

Here you go Birdsfan... I'll help you out with that quick and easy google search. Hopefully you trust Wikipedia as a reliable source...

 

There's a lot a relevant info in the first paragraph. Also, scroll to the info regarding trafficking...

 

Opium production in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

This other Wikipedia link is also interesting. Scroll to the trafficking info here as well for an interesting read...

 

Heroin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Better keep that aluminum foil hat ready just in case the Klingons start shooting is with poppy rays. :lol:

[Run To State]

B-Ball-fan, I'm going to address you on a couple of things.

First off, you're taking my post a little out of context. I did say that ending up a heroin user can start out with something as innocent as alcohol use, but you're taking it for granted that I think alcohol abuse isn't a serious problem. Considering that my sister was killed at the age of 18 by a drunk driver, I'm well aware of the dangers of alcohol abuse. But the driver was also smoking marijuana that night as well as taking some pills, so additive personalities can and do include marijuana use. I have a relative that is a recovering addict, can you guess what his first drug was? It wasn't alcohol, it was marijuana. For an addict like him, marijuana was a springboard to much harder drugs until he bottomed out about a year ago, so you're correct when you say that you're sure some can climb the ladder to worse drugs. See, that's the problem, I don't care what the drug is, for an addict it often starts as something innocent like alcohol and yes, marijuana. That's what I meant from the beginning, so I'd appreciate if you don't paint me as one with his head in the sand when it comes to alcohol abuse. I've seen and felt the painful sting of it for years as I've married and had kids and went through good and bad times without my sister to share those times with me and my family. Her never getting to meet or know my wife, my kids or my grandchild is a constant and all too painful reminder of the dangers of alcohol and drug abuse.

And, for the record, I want to state that I don't have a double standard for marijuana while I accept alcohol use. I think both should be legal, but as I just said, both can and have been a springboard for many addicts just as both can and is non-problematic for countless others.

[B-Ball-fan]

Better keep that aluminum foil hat ready just in case the Klingons start shooting is with poppy rays. :lol:

 

Y'know that "Objective Discourse" thing that I was talking about? It's not gonna happen with you, is it? And here I thought that you had a passionate interest and concern with the topic. I still believe that you do, but only to a limited point of understanding. Perhaps your pride and ego will keep you in competitive speak rather than completely attempting to understand and accept the truth of the root of the problem. And in the spirit of competitive speak, if you're feeling defeated just throw out a juvenile reply instead of addressing it sensibly. That's cool. I don't feel like I completely wasted my time here. I did keep my fingers limber and flexed by typing a lot, and my mind exercised with succeeding in the task of presenting my points to ponder with clarity, logic, and accuracy. Imagine that, and all this accomplished by a mind numbed, trippy-hippy, illicit drug addicted, aluminum hat wearing, conspiracy theorist.

[B-Ball-fan]

B-Ball-fan, I'm going to address you on a couple of things.

First off, you're taking my post a little out of context. I did say that ending up a heroin user can start out with something as innocent as alcohol use, but you're taking it for granted that I think alcohol abuse isn't a serious problem. Considering that my sister was killed at the age of 18 by a drunk driver, I'm well aware of the dangers of alcohol abuse. But the driver was also smoking marijuana that night as well as taking some pills, so additive personalities can and do include marijuana use. I have a relative that is a recovering addict, can you guess what his first drug was? It wasn't alcohol, it was marijuana. For an addict like him, marijuana was a springboard to much harder drugs until he bottomed out about a year ago, so you're correct when you say that you're sure some can climb the ladder to worse drugs. See, that's the problem, I don't care what the drug is, for an addict it often starts as something innocent like alcohol and yes, marijuana. That's what I meant from the beginning, so I'd appreciate if you don't paint me as one with his head in the sand when it comes to alcohol abuse. I've seen and felt the painful sting of it for years as I've married and had kids and went through good and bad times without my sister to share those times with me and my family. Her never getting to meet or know my wife, my kids or my grandchild is a constant and all too painful reminder of the dangers of alcohol and drug abuse.

And, for the record, I want to state that I don't have a double standard for marijuana while I accept alcohol use. I think both should be legal, but as I just said, both can and have been a springboard for many addicts just as both can and is non-problematic for countless others.

 

RTS... I can appreciate what you are saying here, and I feel terrible for what you have experienced with the loss of your sister. I wasn't aware of your past misfortune and assure you that I was not trying to insult or be insensitive while presenting my points while addressing your one line "sometimes just as simple as alcohol", as I was using that one line as a springboard to express my thoughts to the double standards that I elaborated on related to society.

 

As I had prefaced and reiterated in my original reply to your post, and my first reply to Birdsfan, and am posting again here verbatim is: "I promise that I'm not trying to insult anyone, but this one line jumped out at me. It does appear that this is society's perception, so I'm not faulting you for being a product of that perception".

 

I can see now that this is not your perception and perhaps your choice of words in that one line does not accurately represent you, but ultimately it was "society's perceptions" and not so much yours that I was addressing. I tried making that clear in my first response to Birdsfan. Hopefully you can see now where I was coming from and am sorry if it appeared that I was addressing you personally.

 

Ultimately, with what you've said here, you and I are probably more closely on the same page than not. Birdsfan and I?... We could be, as I believe that he passionately cares, but he's chosen to spend more energy at misrepresenting my points in an attempt to characterize me as some loony tune, than objectively approaching the topics at hand. That's cool. I can take a joke, but related to these topics, joking is not exactly what I was aiming for. I'm cool with you, hope you're cool with me and that I've made clear to you my motive in presenting my thoughts.

[Run To State]

RTS... I can appreciate what you are saying here, and I feel terrible for what you have experienced with the loss of your sister. I wasn't aware of your past misfortune and assure you that I was not trying to insult or be insensitive while presenting my points while addressing your one line "sometimes just as simple as alcohol", as I was using that one line as a springboard to express my thoughts to the double standards that I elaborated on related to society.

 

As I had prefaced and reiterated in my original reply to your post, and my first reply to Birdsfan, and am posting again here verbatim is: "I promise that I'm not trying to insult anyone, but this one line jumped out at me. It does appear that this is society's perception, so I'm not faulting you for being a product of that perception".

 

I can see now that this is not your perception and perhaps your choice of words in that one line does not accurately represent you, but ultimately it was "society's perceptions" and not so much yours that I was addressing. I tried making that clear in my first response to Birdsfan. Hopefully you can see now where I was coming from and am sorry if it appeared that I was addressing you personally.

 

Ultimately, with what you've said here, you and I are probably more closely on the same page than not. Birdsfan and I?... We could be, as I believe that he passionately cares, but he's chosen to spend more energy at misrepresenting my points in an attempt to characterize me as some loony tune, than objectively approaching the topics at hand. That's cool. I can take a joke, but related to these topics, joking is not exactly what I was aiming for. I'm cool with you, hope you're cool with me and that I've made clear to you my motive in presenting my thoughts.

We're cool, you didn't offend me, I just wanted to make sure you knew I understood the dangers of alcohol and I get your point about perception by some.

Birdsfan is very passionate about the dangers of all drugs, he and I have had discussions about them. He is very firm and learned on the subject of drug/alcohol use and drug/alcohol abuse and I respect that as I'm sure you do, whether in agreement or not of opinions.

[TTS_JF]

After reading thru these posts I feel like several of us have expressed the

same points just based over certain drugs or alochol for that matter. RTS I'm

so sorry for the loss that you and your family have had to deal with. I think alot

of mental illness is that's been discussed on here depends on the person that it effects

and how they deal with it. Myself or RTS might be able to go out and have a few drinks or smoke

a joint and enjoy ourself, unfortunatly addiction effects everyone in different ways and that's what

makes it so hard to see it in others and what's going on in their life.