Hell is Hot!

[spindoc]

I look at it like this...I have come to the belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God & that his death & resurrection provides salvation from sin for the whole world. That's not something I made up on my own. I've gathered that from the words of the Bible--a book that I believe is inspired by God Himself. There are numerous passages from Scripture that reveal Jesus as "the way" or as the "one name" by which we must be saved, etc. Some of those passages are direct quotes from Jesus himself. In addition, just before Jesus ascended into heaven, he commanded his followers to go and "make disciples of all nations."

 

Now, do I know this for a 100% fact? Honestly, no I can't. But, the Bible also tells me that this is where faith comes into play. According to the writer of Hebrews, faith can be defined as "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." When the risen Jesus appeared to Thomas, Thomas touched his Savior's scars and came to belief. Jesus blessed him for that belief and then added, "Blessed are those who don't see and yet believe." He's speaking, obviously, of those who weren't eyewitnesses of his life, death, & resurrection. In other words, us.

 

With all of that in mind, I see it as my commission to point as many people to Jesus as I can ("Go make disciples of all nations"). If he is the Son of God; if his death & resurrection indeed save people from all their sins, then I don't see what other option I have. Will that result in people labeling me as narrow-minded? Without question. Will I always present that message of Jesus in a way that would honor him? I doubt it.

 

Where I and many other Christians are most guilty, I would imagine, is in our presentation. I believe the best way to point people to Jesus is through actions, first and foremost. Jesus also said, "Let your light shine before men that they may see your good deeds and praise the Father in heaven." Words are important, but actions are much greater. That's a lesson I'm continually having to learn and remind myself of. So I see it as my task to point people to Jesus through my actions. Words will eventually come into play, but they must be preceded by my actions.

 

So yes, I firmly believe Jesus to be "the way, the truth and the life" and that "no man comes to the Father" except through him (John 14). In my actions & to a lesser extent my words, he has commissioned me to point people to him. What happens to people after they die is solely up to God and to Him alone. As I've said in this thread, only He knows every person's heart, opportunities, exposure to the Gospel, etc. I trust Him to be a perfect judge of someone's eternal destination. But my part, according to Jesus, is to simply point people to him.

 

That obviously will not resonate with everyone, and some may be severely offended by my worldview. To those folks, I respect them and will do my best to treat them the way I myself would want to be treated.

 

Finally, having said all of that, I really appreciate everyone's input in this thread & others like it. P&R isn't always the most peace-loving place in the world, and I know I've contributed to that at times. And to those who hold the exact opposite belief of me and others like me, I am grateful your feedback, and I'm not just blowing smoke in saying that. I look forward to our continued discussions & debates.

Possibly the best post I've ever read in this forum.

[Zlatan]

Possibly the best post I've ever read in this forum.

 

I concur, and I don't even agree with different parts of what Randy said.

 

What it all boils down to, in my opinion, is people's beliefs and faith. If those beliefs and that faith makes you a better person, then I think your religion is doing an excellent thing. We live in a world that can be so incredible yet so screwed up. Anything, and I mean anything, that helps someone become a more respectful, loving, and kind individual is something I view as a positive -- no matter what religion they follow.

 

All that UKMustangFan and I are trying to say is this (correct me if I'm wrong UKMF) -- that people who do things in a Christ-like fashion and who happen to choose a different deity shouldn't necessarily be excluded from Heaven. Will they be? No one knows. You can take the Bible verse that I have become familiar with since it's alluded to frequently on P&R -- the one with Jesus saying the only way to get to Heaven is through him -- as you interpret it. I believe you read that as the only way to Heaven is to go through Christ literally -- through an active and conscious decision to become a Christian and worship in a church. My interpretation of that line of text is that he is referring to Christ-like works on earth and actions, bettering the world around you.

 

I know that there are Bible verses alluded to earlier that illustrate points different than my thoughts, but it comes down to faith and what you believe. That just happens to be what I believe.

 

Frankly, it is ridiculous for any of us to try to use somewhat secular logic (let's call my argument that) or Bible verses (let's call that the general argument against mine) to try to prove each other wrong, because we don't know. We won't know until we get where we're going or if there's anywhere to even get to.

[UKMustangFan]

I concur, and I don't even agree with different parts of what Randy said.

 

What it all boils down to, in my opinion, is people's beliefs and faith. If those beliefs and that faith makes you a better person, then I think your religion is doing an excellent thing. We live in a world that can be so incredible yet so screwed up. Anything, and I mean anything, that helps someone become a more respectful, loving, and kind individual is something I view as a positive -- no matter what religion they follow.

 

All that UKMustangFan and I are trying to say is this (correct me if I'm wrong UKMF) -- that people who do things in a Christ-like fashion and who happen to choose a different deity shouldn't necessarily be excluded from Heaven. Will they be? No one knows. You can take the Bible verse that I have become familiar with since it's alluded to frequently on P&R -- the one with Jesus saying the only way to get to Heaven is through him -- as you interpret it. I believe you read that as the only way to Heaven is to go through Christ literally -- through an active and conscious decision to become a Christian and worship in a church. My interpretation of that line of text is that he is referring to Christ-like works on earth and actions, bettering the world around you.

 

I know that there are Bible verses alluded to earlier that illustrate points different than my thoughts, but it comes down to faith and what you believe. That just happens to be what I believe.

 

Frankly, it is ridiculous for any of us to try to use somewhat secular logic (let's call my argument that) or Bible verses (let's call that the general argument against mine) to try to prove each other wrong, because we don't know. We won't know until we get where we're going or if there's anywhere to even get to.

 

Sums up my belief perfectly. Thank you, you put it much more eloquently than I could. :thumb:

[UKMustangFan]

I look at it like this...I have come to the belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God & that his death & resurrection provides salvation from sin for the whole world. That's not something I made up on my own. I've gathered that from the words of the Bible--a book that I believe is inspired by God Himself. There are numerous passages from Scripture that reveal Jesus as "the way" or as the "one name" by which we must be saved, etc. Some of those passages are direct quotes from Jesus himself. In addition, just before Jesus ascended into heaven, he commanded his followers to go and "make disciples of all nations."

 

Now, do I know this for a 100% fact? Honestly, no I can't. But, the Bible also tells me that this is where faith comes into play. According to the writer of Hebrews, faith can be defined as "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." When the risen Jesus appeared to Thomas, Thomas touched his Savior's scars and came to belief. Jesus blessed him for that belief and then added, "Blessed are those who don't see and yet believe." He's speaking, obviously, of those who weren't eyewitnesses of his life, death, & resurrection. In other words, us.

 

With all of that in mind, I see it as my commission to point as many people to Jesus as I can ("Go make disciples of all nations"). If he is the Son of God; if his death & resurrection indeed save people from all their sins, then I don't see what other option I have. Will that result in people labeling me as narrow-minded? Without question. Will I always present that message of Jesus in a way that would honor him? I doubt it.

 

Where I and many other Christians are most guilty, I would imagine, is in our presentation. I believe the best way to point people to Jesus is through actions, first and foremost. Jesus also said, "Let your light shine before men that they may see your good deeds and praise the Father in heaven." Words are important, but actions are much greater. That's a lesson I'm continually having to learn and remind myself of. So I see it as my task to point people to Jesus through my actions. Words will eventually come into play, but they must be preceded by my actions.

 

So yes, I firmly believe Jesus to be "the way, the truth and the life" and that "no man comes to the Father" except through him (John 14). In my actions & to a lesser extent my words, he has commissioned me to point people to him. What happens to people after they die is solely up to God and to Him alone. As I've said in this thread, only He knows every person's heart, opportunities, exposure to the Gospel, etc. I trust Him to be a perfect judge of someone's eternal destination. But my part, according to Jesus, is to simply point people to him.

 

That obviously will not resonate with everyone, and some may be severely offended by my worldview. To those folks, I respect them and will do my best to treat them the way I myself would want to be treated.

 

Finally, having said all of that, I really appreciate everyone's input in this thread & others like it. P&R isn't always the most peace-loving place in the world, and I know I've contributed to that at times. And to those who hold the exact opposite belief of me and others like me, I am grateful your feedback, and I'm not just blowing smoke in saying that. I look forward to our continued discussions & debates.

 

Like Zlatan, I don't agree with everything in here, but awesome post Randy! :thumb:

 

And as clarification, I hope you (or anyone else) don't take my answers as meaning people on BGP. I come into these debates on here because I know it's going to be thought-provoking and respectful. Hopefully, I've lived up to my own standards in this thread and not offended.

[acemona]

I believe I've seen both of you reference the Bible & what it means to you. A question I have: What do you make of Jesus' words in John 14, when he claimed to be "the way, the truth, and the life" and that "no man comes to the Father except through me."

 

Not a rhetorical question. Just want to know how you interpret statement (and others like it).

 

Not sure I can answer that specifically. I am not a believer in substitution or propitiation, but I believe Jesus opens the door for us all and that the door would probably not have been open had it not been for Jesus. Do I take that scripture to mean that I must say or believe something doctrinally - no.

 

My question to you would be what do you do with the words of Jesus in Matthew 25 when he tells the folks they are going to heaven without having any kind of belief and without even knowing they were serving him? If you take the scripture literally, and you are honest about it and don't equivocate, Jesus says you go to heaven by taking care of the least of these.

[Randy Parker]

Not sure I can answer that specifically. I am not a believer in substitution or propitiation, but I believe Jesus opens the door for us all and that the door would probably not have been open had it not been for Jesus. Do I take that scripture to mean that I must say or believe something doctrinally - no.

 

My question to you would be what do you do with the words of Jesus in Matthew 25 when he tells the folks they are going to heaven without having any kind of belief and without even knowing they were serving him? If you take the scripture literally, and you are honest about it and don't equivocate, Jesus says you go to heaven by taking care of the least of these.

 

On your Matthew 25 comment, I would go back to the statement I made (I think in this thread) about faith vs. works. First of all, there's no mention of the beliefs of the sheep or goats in Matthew 25. So I would disagree that they were without any kind of belief. I am of the opinion that the sheep did believe & that their belief was authenticated by what they were doing--feeding the hungry, providing drink to the thirsty, housing the stranger, clothing the naked, looking after the sick, visiting the outcast in prison. It matches what James says--"I'll show you my faith by what I do." That's what these people were doing--serving, or showing their faith. And they weren't doing it to show off, ala the Pharisees. They were doing it because their relationship with Christ transformed them from the inside out.

 

Conversely, we have the goats. I actually believe these people are more like the Pharisees, or modern "Christians" who profess Jesus in tongue, but fail to profess him in action. Jesus elsewhere said something to the effect of, "Not everyone who calls on my name will be saved." And the reason for that is that the "calling on of his name" isn't legit; it lacks authenticity. If their faith was real, it would be validated by works. Again, I harken back to James where he says, "You tell me you have faith...good! Even the demons believe." Demons might believe, but they obviously will not spend eternity in heaven, because their actions prove their belief to be solely head knowledge. In other words, they haven't applied what they know to be true.

 

Genuine belief & faith in Christ will result in Christ-like action, which is what the sheep of Matthew 25 were doing. Fraudulent faith results in what the goats were doing, which is nothing.

 

I guess in short, Matthew 25 is a visual picture of what James says about faith & works.

[acemona]

On your Matthew 25 comment, I would go back to the statement I made (I think in this thread) about faith vs. works. First of all, there's no mention of the beliefs of the sheep or goats in Matthew 25. So I would disagree that they were without any kind of belief. I am of the opinion that the sheep did believe & that their belief was authenticated by what they were doing--feeding the hungry, providing drink to the thirsty, housing the stranger, clothing the naked, looking after the sick, visiting the outcast in prison. It matches what James says--"I'll show you my faith by what I do." That's what these people were doing--serving, or showing their faith. And they weren't doing it to show off, ala the Pharisees. They were doing it because their relationship with Christ transformed them from the inside out.

 

Conversely, we have the goats. I actually believe these people are more like the Pharisees, or modern "Christians" who profess Jesus in tongue, but fail to profess him in action. Jesus elsewhere said something to the effect of, "Not everyone who calls on my name will be saved." And the reason for that is that the "calling on of his name" isn't legit; it lacks authenticity. If their faith was real, it would be validated by works. Again, I harken back to James where he says, "You tell me you have faith...good! Even the demons believe." Demons might believe, but they obviously will not spend eternity in heaven, because their actions prove their belief to be solely head knowledge. In other words, they haven't applied what they know to be true.

 

Genuine belief & faith in Christ will result in Christ-like action, which is what the sheep of Matthew 25 were doing. Fraudulent faith results in what the goats were doing, which is nothing.

 

I guess in short, Matthew 25 is a visual picture of what James says about faith & works.

 

Now you have moved from a literal reading to your interpretation. The literal reading says nothing about belief, only that the sheep will find heaven because they have taken care of the least.

 

My interpretation says that people who serve God by doing good, whether they "know" Jesus or not, are known by God and therefore redeemed. Thomas Merton even said that the search for God is pleasing to God.

 

Now, we have both read the same thing, brought our own cultural biases to it and come away with different readings. Who is correct? That is why I believe that my path may be different than yours and there is no "one right way".

[Randy Parker]

Now you have moved from a literal reading to your interpretation. The literal reading says nothing about belief, only that the sheep will find heaven because they have taken care of the least.

 

My interpretation says that people who serve God by doing good, whether they "know" Jesus or not, are known by God and therefore redeemed. Thomas Merton even said that the search for God is pleasing to God.

 

Now, we have both read the same thing, brought our own cultural biases to it and come away with different readings. Who is correct? That is why I believe that my path may be different than yours and there is no "one right way".

 

And I would counter by saying it doesn't mention disbelief either.

 

My interpretation is based on everything else Scripture says as a whole, particularly about salvation. I don't believe the Bible would say on the one hand that "it is by grace you are saved, through faith" (Ephesians 2) and then come over in Matthew 25 and say that salvation is available by good deeds. Or that Jesus himself would claim to be "the way, the truth and the life" (John 14) or that "whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life" (John 3) and then somewhere else say that eternal life is available through some other means, or some other person.

 

If Matthew 25 was the only Scripture that referenced eternal life in heaven & how one receives that, I would come to a different conclusion.

 

Scripture speaks of "rightly dividing" the word of truth & preaching "the whole counsel of God." I believe any interpretation of any Scripture must keep that in mind.

[acemona]

And I would counter by saying it doesn't mention disbelief either.

 

My interpretation is based on everything else Scripture says as a whole, particularly about salvation. I don't believe the Bible would say on the one hand that "it is by grace you are saved, through faith" (Ephesians 2) and then come over in Matthew 25 and say that salvation is available by good deeds. Or that Jesus himself would claim to be "the way, the truth and the life" (John 14) or that "whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life" (John 3) and then somewhere else say that eternal life is available through some other means, or some other person.

 

If Matthew 25 was the only Scripture that referenced eternal life in heaven & how one receives that, I would come to a different conclusion.

 

Scripture speaks of "rightly dividing" the word of truth & preaching "the whole counsel of God." I believe any interpretation of any Scripture must keep that in mind.

 

There is no doubt you can counter, and I can as well, whereby one man's sin all were condemned, by one mans sacrifice all are redeemed (paraphrase) would speak of universal salvation.

 

That is my point, though. I do take back my "there is no one path", though. There is 'one path' for ME, while you may need to take another.

 

Neither of us, I assume, are pure enough to suggest we can know the mind and heart of God, so I have to find my own way and work through my salvation everyday. You do as well. How can you possible tell me what my work needs to be, or more to the point, has to be.

[Randy Parker]

There is no doubt you can counter, and I can as well, whereby one man's sin all were condemned, by one mans sacrifice all are redeemed (paraphrase) would speak of universal salvation.

 

That is my point, though. I do take back my "there is no one path", though. There is 'one path' for ME, while you may need to take another.

 

Neither of us, I assume, are pure enough to suggest we can know the mind and heart of God, so I have to find my own way and work through my salvation everyday. You do as well. How can you possible tell me what my work needs to be, or more to the point, has to be.

 

To your first paragraph, I would again say that if I look at Scripture as a whole (the Matthew 25 you referenced, for example), I see that the idea of universal salvation is put down. So therefore, if I interpret the "one man's sacrifice all are redeemed" passage as meaning all will be saved, then the problem is with my interpretation.

 

On the second paragraph, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

On the third, I absolutely agree that we can't fully know the mind & heart of God. Augustine said if we fully understand God, He stops being God. And as I've stated several times, God will ultimately decide eternal destination for everyone. He's the only one capable of doing so. But as far as what He has given me in His Word, I'm told to make disciples of Jesus.

[acemona]

To your first paragraph, I would again say that if I look at Scripture as a whole (the Matthew 25 you referenced, for example), I see that the idea of universal salvation is put down. So therefore, if I interpret the "one man's sacrifice all are redeemed" passage as meaning all will be saved, then the problem is with my interpretation.

 

On the second paragraph, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

On the third, I absolutely agree that we can't fully know the mind & heart of God. Augustine said if we fully understand God, He stops being God. And as I've stated several times, God will ultimately decide eternal destination for everyone. He's the only one capable of doing so. But as far as what He has given me in His Word, I'm told to make disciples of Jesus.

 

As am I. Again, just different approaches. I am not so much worried about saving some one from eternal damnation (not a believer), but to allow them to live an abundant life (not wealth or possessions) now. This is a life lived serving others. Not that I do that like I should, I just believe that is how I could have a more abundant life. I essentially stink in my servant life, but am working on it.

[Randy Parker]

I essentially stink in my servant life, but am working on it.

 

That makes two of us.:thumb:

[acemona]

From an email devotional I get every day.

 

Ephesians 1:7-8

 

"We have been ransomed through his Son's blood, and we have forgiveness for our failures based on his overflowing grace, which he poured over us with wisdom and understanding."

 

In "The Messsage," Eugene Peterson translates today's verse this way: "Because of the sacrifice of the Messiah, his blood poured out on the altar of the Cross, we're a free people--free of penalties and punishments chalked up by all our misdeeds. And not just barely free, either. Abundantly free!"

[Alabama Larry]

Really been enjoying the feed back.