I'm not sure where you are getting that Barkley had no one at guard. Kevin Johnson was an excellent point guard, as a matter of fact he was 2nd team All-NBA 4 times and 3rd team All-NBA once. One of those years he was 2nd team was 1994, Barkley's 2nd team with the Suns. For the 4 years they were together here are Johnson's averages:

 

1993 16.1 Points, 7.8 assists

1994 20.0 points, 9.5 assists

1995 15.5 points, 7.7 assists

1996 18.7 points, 9.2 assists

 

 

He had some injuries during the regular season each of those years but was great in the playoffs .

 

I agree totally. I didn't mention Kevin Johnson because he isn't a HOF guard like Stockton and how Payton likely will be. As good as Kevin Johnson was I never saw him in the same mold as Stockton or Payton but I liked him more than both put together. He was to Barkley like Pau is to Kobe except Kobe and Pau have 1 title. He was great but not an all time great. I never felt like KJ was enough.

Kareem and Magic win fairly easily for me. Clyde has done a good job of expressing why I think so.

 

Clyde was very convincing. The Lakers and Celtics were 2 HOF laden teams and the Lakers got 5 out of Magic and Kareem. Excellent points. I think this is where my bias towards wing players comes in. I still side with MJ and Pippen but truth be told their will likely never be a better duo to play on the same team as Magic and Kareem when it comes to overall greatness. You are talking the two greatest players at their positions and both likely top 5 of all time. Maybe even top 3. That says a lot.

I'm not sure why a)using championships as the criteria or b)if so why we're discounting the competition. No chance the MJ Bulls faced the same competition that the Magic/Kareem Lakers did. I'm the only that remembers that the Lakers faced a team with a bunch of HOFers or near HOFers? Do the names Bird, Parish, McHale not ring a bell? How about Zeke, Laimbeer, Mahorn, and the Microwave?

 

You can't just look at raw numbers without attaching context.

 

MJ/Pippen would be at the bottom of the list above (and that's a credit to MJ).

 

I brought that up in a different thread......:sssh:

Honorable mention to Ron Artest and his psychiatrist?

How about the best duo never to win a title? Malone and Stockton?

 

Surprise these two aren't mentioned: How can you not mention Elgin Baylor and Jerry West?????

I'm not sure why a)using championships as the criteria or b)if so why we're discounting the competition. No chance the MJ Bulls faced the same competition that the Magic/Kareem Lakers did. I'm the only that remembers that the Lakers faced a team with a bunch of HOFers or near HOFers? Do the names Bird, Parish, McHale not ring a bell? How about Zeke, Laimbeer, Mahorn, and the Microwave?

 

You can't just look at raw numbers without attaching context.

 

MJ/Pippen would be at the bottom of the list above (and that's a credit to MJ).

 

 

I would also add to look at all the teams the Lakers played or beat during the 80's:

 

Philadelphia (faced them 3 times going 2-1) - sported Dr. J, Bobby Jones and for one brief moment, Moses Malone

 

Boston (faced them 3 times going 2-1) - Enough said

 

Detroit (faced twice going 1-1) - Isaiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Adrian Dantley, Mark Aguire

 

8 Finals in 10 years and winning 5 of them. Not bad.

Honorable mention to Ron Artest and his psychiatrist?

Hands down the greatest duo in NBA history!

Russell and anybody else would be the best.

Honorable mention to Ron Artest and his psychiatrist?

 

To me that is just a simple compliment to Phil Jackson and his ability to get players on the same page and actually perform. (Insert Rodman here as well)

5wide ... I would say half those HOFers you list are HOFers because of Russell. Who else did MJ get into the Hall besides Pippen? There are always two ways to look at something.

 

Fair enough.

 

But, I'm very hesitant to give one player credit for another's career. No doubt stars benefit from playing with each other, and the bigger the star the more the benefit. I believe those guys would have been very good players regardless. I don't subscribe to the theory that MJ made Pippen either. Certainly, he benefitted from playing with Jordan, just like everybody else on the Bulls team. However, if Jordan were capable of "making" a Pippen, why didn't the Bulls have a team full of them. And, on the flipside, I think Jordan benefitted very much from Scottie.

 

But, this argument aside, I would have loved to see Bill Russell play. He seems like one of the classiest athletes I've seen. The LA crowd was booing him a little last night when he was presenting Kobe with the MVP award and he just laughed. He seems like a genuine good person. Having never seen him played, I've got a lot of respect for him simply for how he presents himself. Also, having never seen him play doesn't really allow me to make an accurate judgment in this debate. Obviously, I'm more likely to go with guys I watched.:idunno:

I'd probably vote Magic and Kareem as #2.

Fair enough.

 

But, I'm very hesitant to give one player credit for another's career. No doubt stars benefit from playing with each other, and the bigger the star the more the benefit. I believe those guys would have been very good players regardless. I don't subscribe to the theory that MJ made Pippen either. Certainly, he benefitted from playing with Jordan, just like everybody else on the Bulls team. However, if Jordan were capable of "making" a Pippen, why didn't the Bulls have a team full of them. And, on the flipside, I think Jordan benefitted very much from Scottie.

 

But, this argument aside, I would have loved to see Bill Russell play. He seems like one of the classiest athletes I've seen. The LA crowd was booing him a little last night when he was presenting Kobe with the MVP award and he just laughed. He seems like a genuine good person. Having never seen him played, I've got a lot of respect for him simply for how he presents himself. Also, having never seen him play doesn't really allow me to make an accurate judgment in this debate. Obviously, I'm more likely to go with guys I watched.:idunno:

 

I obviously didn't see Russell play but I think him being classy is a bit of a misconception. He was supposedly really bitter during his playing career and did not have a great relationship with Boston fans who he thought were racist. He didn't get along with Heisohn and even told him that he should split his ROY check with him. He also refused to go to the parade after his last title stating that he owed the city of Boston nothing. He has gotten better with age, but I still think he gets a pass for alot of stuff because of how much success he had.

 

I feel that today Russell gets the saint reputation while Chamberlain is seen as a selfish or even bad guy. Chamberlain from what I've read was way more personable and was the more likeable of the two off the court.

I obviously didn't see Russell play but I think him being classy is a bit of a misconception. He was supposedly really bitter during his playing career and did not have a great relationship with Boston fans who he thought were racist. He didn't get along with Heisohn and even told him that he should split his ROY check with him. He also refused to go to the parade after his last title stating that he owed the city of Boston nothing. He has gotten better with age, but I still think he gets a pass for alot of stuff because of how much success he had.

 

I feel that today Russell gets the saint reputation while Chamberlain is seen as a selfish or even bad guy. Chamberlain from what I've read was way more personable and was the more likeable of the two off the court.

 

Could be right. I don't know. Just going by what I've seen of him. He was right on one count though. He doesn't owe the city of Boston anything. He brought them 11 titles. What more do they want? :lol:

 

FWIW, I would rate Wilt as the greatest center in league history, above Russell and everyone else. That's from limited knowledge of course, since both were before my time.

Could be right. I don't know. Just going by what I've seen of him. He was right on one count though. He doesn't owe the city of Boston anything. He brought them 11 titles. What more do they want? :lol:

 

FWIW, I would rate Wilt as the greatest center in league history, above Russell and everyone else. That's from limited knowledge of course, since both were before my time.

 

Both were awesome centers with only Jabbar in their company. Totally different players. Wilt was a scoring machine-apparently in many ways! Bill was a defensive stalwart. When they went head to head Bill got the better of Wilt, but had much more support. That seems to be a common theme in the NBA-have a superstar and then build around him some fine, fine players.

Could be right. I don't know. Just going by what I've seen of him. He was right on one count though. He doesn't owe the city of Boston anything. He brought them 11 titles. What more do they want? :lol:

 

FWIW, I would rate Wilt as the greatest center in league history, above Russell and everyone else. That's from limited knowledge of course, since both were before my time.

 

I'll take Wilt as well. Russell was a better winner but he had a great coach and an all-star cast every year. Wilt didn't have as great a cast in Philly, and when he got to LA I don't think the coach liked him and famously kept him out of the end of the '69 (?) championship game.