UK 2012 vs. UK 2010- Boogie says...

[JokersWild24]

Would Davis be able to guard Boogie? Boogie is arguably the best center in the NBA right now. Davis is a PF at best. No way is he strong enough to stop Boogie offensively and who did Davis play against in college that was at the Demarcus Cousins level?

 

 

What does it mean for the 2012's if Davis gets in quick foul trouble trying to guard Cousins?

A lineup with Miller, Vargas, or Wiltjer having to play the 4 or 5.

 

What does it mean for the 2010's if Cousins gets in quick foul trouble trying to guard Davis?

A lineup with Patterson or Orton having to play the 5.

[JokersWild24]

It's a no brainer for me, 2012 all the way. 10 had more talent but 2012 simply refused to lose. They'd win 2 of 3 IMO.

 

I'm more interested in comparing Champions against Champions. 2010 don't have the clout to make a judgement on 2011, 12 or even 14.

 

 

2010 lost one game at the wrong time. They weren't champions, but that doesn't make me any less inclined to say they were one of the best college teams ever.

 

Who do you take in a pro game? Duke with Hill and Laettner or the Fab Five with Webber, Howard, and Rose?

 

 

 

I can see why people take 2012, but it's a big stretch to call it a no brainer if you're going to count on Teague and Lamb to be the guys keeping Wall and Bledsoe out of the middle.

[Randy Parker]

Cal would put MKG on Wall, which would be a highly entertaining matchup.

 

I go back & forth on who would win. I agree wholeheartedly with Hatz on 2010 being more talented, but 2012 being a better team. PP92 makes a good point that the 2012 team had to play that way more so than 2010, but I still think that plays to their favor.

 

2010 overwhelmed people with their size & sheer athleticism. They could score in bunches, particularly on the break with Wall & Bledsoe. And Patterson ran the floor really well too.

 

A 7-game series would surely go all 7 games. It's just hard for me to go with one over the other. The Wall/Cousins tandem is a nightmare offensively, but the Davis/MKG tandem is the same nightmare on the defensive side. A potential x-factor is the Lamb/Blesode matchup. I think I would prefer 2012 Lamb over 2010 Bledsoe. 2014 Bledsoe is far better, but the 2010 version was not as polished as Lamb was in 2012. And 2012 Miller is obviously better than 2010 Miller. Sophomore Darius would have a hard time with senior Darius. :lol2:

 

If forced to pick, I probably go 2012 for two reasons: they were able to win a title & they have the best player.

 

But again, 1996 is better than both. They didn't just beat teams; they steamrolled them.

[JokersWild24]

Cal would put MKG on Wall, which would be a highly entertaining matchup.

 

With MKG on Wall, you are asking Lamb or Teague to guard Bledsoe. That one probably goes to Teague and Lamb has to check Liggins, Miller, or Dodson. I'll take my chances with those match ups if I'm the 2010's.

 

I really think people are underestimating how badly MKG would struggle to score against the 2010s. He's not going to be pulling down tons of defensive rebounds when a frontline of he, Jones, and Davis has to go to the boards matched-up as MKG on Wall, Jones-Patterson, and Davis-Cousins. Even the ones MKG does get, I don't see him scoring in transition in the way he was able to against everyone else.

 

If 2010 had beaten West Virginia, but 2012 had lost to Louisville in the Final Four, then I see no way that we're having these conversations, especially if the 2010 team had went on to win the title. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say the 2010's would have had a great shot at the title either. WVU had one of their best players get hurt early in their blowout loss to Duke. Duke didn't match up well with UK that year and almost lost to Butler in the Finals anyway.

 

I will give it to 2012 when it comes to chemistry and intangibles. If it's a close game, they'd probably find a way to win it more often than not. I'm not saying they were bad or anything either, just that I think the 2010 team's size would hurt and that their All-NBA level guard play would eat the 2012's alive. Wall and Bledsoe are about to get max-contracts and can do it on both ends. Teague and Lamb will be fortunate to be in the league next season. That's a lot to put on them.

 

One aspect that I haven't brought up yet, but since you'd mentioned the match ups, yet another avenue for the 2010s to take could be to play some up-tempo, full-court pressure with a lineup of Wall, Bledsoe, Liggins, Patterson, and Cousins. You could really dictate the tempo and limit the 2012's by having three defenders as good as Wall, Bledsoe, and Liggins matched up on Teague, Lamb, and MKG from end to end for 40 minutes. Of course, the counter to that would be to incorporate everyone and have Jones and Davis use their match ups against Patterson and Cousins to come out and handle the ball and attack the pressure, but that also has an effect on what the team has to do just to set up their half-court offense and get things moving.

 

I could see the 2010s playing the pressure aggressively on the 1, 2, and 3, but not so aggressively overall that the 2012s would be able to try to attack it by looking to score when they did. Seeing how much Louisville's press bothered Kentucky in the 2012 FF and how they used it as a means to winning the rebounding battle, I don't see any reason to think that the 2010 Kentucky team being expected to do the same is completely out of the question. Again, I'm not talking about pressure so intense that there's trapping everywhere and the 2012s can pick it apart when Patterson or Cousins has to chase Jones or Davis.

 

I'm talking man-to-man, Wall and Bledsoe taking turns bullying Teague while the other (or Liggins) does the same to Lamb. MKG isn't a great ball handler, so I'm sure that the 2010s would be fine with MKG having to handle against Liggins or Wall/Bledsoe.

 

The more I think about it, the more ways I see that the 2010's could attack the 2012's, but I'm not really sure you can say the same applies when it comes to the 2012's attacking the 2010's.

[JokersWild24]

The 2012's didn't have the one thing that, if I had to pick, would probably be the key to hurting the 2010's defensively, and that's a bigger wing-type with a complete overall game who could use it to kill you in the mid-range. Take someone who was too big for Bledsoe or big/strong for Wall to guard, but too fast for Patterson to chase around the perimeter and who didn't have to rely on getting all the way to the basket and scoring against Patterson, Cousins, (plus spells of Orton) and you have a good chance of hurting that UK team. If I'm picking a team just to play the 2010's and need a way to hurt them defensively, then my first thought would be to look for that and then putting everything else around it.

 

Lamb was nice from mid-range, but he's not got the right mix of body type and athleticism to be able to really kill a Bledsoe or Wall.

[JokersWild24]

Same premise as the post above, and if I am picking a team to play against the 2012's, then the first thing I want is a big man who can step away from the basket and make shots over Jones who also passes just well enough to keep things opened up once you commit Davis to him.

 

Royce White of Iowa State, Perry Jones III of Baylor both had big NCAA tournament games against the Cats that season. Iowa State (an 8) was overmatched at every position aside from (arguably) White, and Baylor (a low 3) was overmatched on the whole as well, but those were 16 and 12 point wins respectively.

 

Call me crazy, but if I'm just looking for someone to fill that role and against the 2012 team, one of my first thoughts is Frank Kaminsky of Wisconsin. No, he isn't talented enough to be the "first pick" if your drafting teams, but he's a guy I could see being invaluable against the 2012's because Davis would at least aware of where he was at all times and would have to respect by not giving up too much space, even if it means covering him all the way out past the three point line.

[Hatz]

2010 lost one game at the wrong time. They weren't champions, but that doesn't make me any less inclined to say they were one of the best college teams ever.

 

Who do you take in a pro game? Duke with Hill and Laettner or the Fab Five with Webber, Howard, and Rose?

 

 

 

I can see why people take 2012, but it's a big stretch to call it a no brainer if you're going to count on Teague and Lamb to be the guys keeping Wall and Bledsoe out of the middle.

 

 

This is where we are approaching this from two different angles. I am rationalizing from college performance alone. Others are looking at NBA as a factor. The 2010 guys have had two extra years to make NBA growth.

 

I would add the 2010 team was defeated three times. Lost at South Carolina, beaten badly at Tennesee, lost to WV.

 

2012 lost only twice, a shot by IU on the road where UK may have pulled it out, and the Vandy game where they were beaten down the final stretch. They were never beaten by double digits or out of any game in the last minute.

[Hatz]

Jones vs. Patterson. That's the point of this matchup. Patterson is too strong and physical to let Jones' shot blocking ability take over.

 

I know Jones might have had more blocks than Cousins, but I'd give Cousins a much better chance at blocking Patterson's shot than I would Jones. I would guess that quite a few of Jones' blocks came where he was chasing down plays in an up and down game, not ones where he was one on one with a 4 or 5 in the post who tried to go up over him. Likewise, I'd also imagine that plenty of Jones' blocks in his 2 years also came from him spending more time guarding 3's as well.

 

Look at him in Houston. The way you're using his stats, how do you explain that he and Dwight Howard (widely considered one of the best shot blockers in the league), didn't leave the Rockets with better rates of protecting the rim?

 

Davis himself would struggle with Cousins, and I don't see Jones coming on a help rotation as bothering him. We're talking about a big man who was 5th in the NBA in per while still being 3rd in the league in usage. I know Davis had a slightly better overall PER than Cousins, but he was also used on 20% of the team's possessions as compared to 30%. No way he'd have been able to sustain those numbers if he'd been asked to increase his usage rate by 150%.

 

I don't see the overall love for PPat over Jones. Jones guarded 4's, not3's. He was a 4 both seasons.

 

Patterson shot 57 percent with 238 rebounds. Jones shot 50 percent with 272 boards.

 

You are using NBA performance as a factor but I am talking strictly college performance.

[JokersWild24]

I see where you're coming from, and I wasn't meaning to imply Jones primarily guarded 3's, just that he would be more likely to switch off onto one whereas Patterson would be more likely to switch off onto a 5 in the team's schemes. I was just using the NBA numbers to try to back up the point that Patterson is more of a physical, undersized 4 who does his scoring around the rim and is the guy you'd pick to knock someone off the block and Jones is more of a slashing, athletic 4 who tries to find a mismatch and take advantage of that to score. Usually Jones' mismatch is dragging a bigger player out and driving by them. Usually Pattersons' scoring comes from putbacks, pin downs, or uncontested set shots that teams are willing to live with him taking (at least until he makes a couple).

 

Patterson's rebounding #'s in 2010 were 283, not 238. Fixing that number, he had slightly more than Jones had. Patterson shot a higher percentage (even though Cal was tinkering with having him expand his range to help the team stretch the floor). If you look at 2010 Patterson vs 2012 Jones, he even shot a higher percentage from 3, and on more attempts. Still, both of those numbers don't really show significant enough differences to conclusively say that one was that much better than the other in those fields.

 

 

Terrence Jones Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

 

Patrick Patterson Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

[Cats3x]

2010 lost one game at the wrong time. They weren't champions, but that doesn't make me any less inclined to say they were one of the best college teams ever.

 

Who do you take in a pro game? Duke with Hill and Laettner or the Fab Five with Webber, Howard, and Rose?

 

 

 

I can see why people take 2012, but it's a big stretch to call it a no brainer if you're going to count on Teague and Lamb to be the guys keeping Wall and Bledsoe out of the middle.

 

That one game is all I need. 2012 simply wasn't going to lose a tournament game. Refused to do it. Won every game going away. That's all I need.

[JokersWild24]

That one game is all I need. 2012 simply wasn't going to lose a tournament game. Refused to do it. Won every game going away. That's all I need.

 

 

2012 refused to lose, yes. They weren't going to lose in the tournament. They were also undoubtedly the best team at that point. To be fair though, any chance of a rematch with North Carolina ended when Marshall broke his wrist, and Vanderbilt had just beaten us in the SEC tournament after we'd only beaten Florida by 3 the day before. The best team? Probably. Unbeatable? Hardly.

 

 

 

Won every game going away? WKU, Iowa State, and Baylor, yes. The rest, I'm not so sure.

 

 

Beat Indiana in the Sweet 16 by 12 and only led by 3 at half. Our largest lead of the game was 13.

 

 

Almost blew the natty against Kansas late-- I remember a big lead suddenly starting to slip away. With 1:30 left, it was a 5 point game. With 1:11 left it's 63-57, KU's inbounding and on a 13-4 run.

 

 

Beat Louisville by 8, largest lead of the game was 13. 63-57 with 1:30 left and UK ball. A 6 point lead late was nice, but not safe the way UK shot free throws and given that UL had just ended a huge scoring drought. It definitely wasn't impossible considering UK turned the ball over and put Smith on the line the next play. We're talking the possibility of a 4 point game with 1:20 left, UL having some momentum, and just getting started with the foul game (Teague & MKG had 4 fouls each at that point too). Siva hits one of two, UK rebounds and Davis gets a dunk to seal it at 1:00 (

, start at 1:30:00).

 

 

2012 was great and the national title win was awesome, but I don't think it's being objective to say that we just dominated the tournament, especially late. They had a high scoring differential because no game ended up with a really close margin, but still weren't exactly 2006 Florida or 2009 North Carolina just running roughshod over everybody, even teams they played in the Final Four.

[bugatti]

2012 refused to lose' date=' yes. They weren't going to lose in the tournament. They were also undoubtedly the best team at that point. To be fair though, any chance of a rematch with North Carolina ended when Marshall broke his wrist, and Vanderbilt had just beaten us in the SEC tournament after we'd only beaten Florida by 3 the day before. The best team? Probably. Unbeatable? Hardly. Won every game going away? WKU, Iowa State, and Baylor, yes. The rest, I'm not so sure. Beat Indiana in the Sweet 16 by 12 and only led by 3 at half. Our largest lead of the game was 13. Almost blew the natty against Kansas late-- I remember a big lead suddenly starting to slip away. With 1:30 left, it was a 5 point game. With 1:11 left it's 63-57, KU's inbounding and on a 13-4 run. Beat Louisville by 8, largest lead of the game was 13. 63-57 with 1:30 left and UK ball. A 6 point lead late was nice, but not safe the way UK shot free throws and given that UL had just ended a huge scoring drought. It definitely wasn't impossible considering UK turned the ball over and put Smith on the line the next play. We're talking the possibility of a 4 point game with 1:20 left, UL having some momentum, and just getting started with the foul game (Teague & MKG had 4 fouls each at that point too). Siva hits one of two, UK rebounds and Davis gets a dunk to seal it at 1:00 (

, start at 1:30:00). 2012 was great and the national title win was awesome, but I don't think it's being objective to say that we just dominated the tournament, especially late. They had a high scoring differential because no game ended up with a really close margin, but still weren't exactly 2006 Florida or 2009 North Carolina just running roughshod over everybody, even teams they played in the Final Four.

 

Against IU it was a layup drill. Probably the least they had to work on offense all season and Davis was in foul trouble a chunk of the game. KU they dominated for 37 minutes of the game. Just too skilled. The UL game I still get chills thinking about.

 

I think people are really ignoring the intangible differences between the two. I value that a lot. You can debate the physical traits of both teams, but the 2012 wins in that department by a landslide. Headed by MKG. The only way I can explain it is that had 2012 been in the same situation as 2010, in that they were frigid from the field against WVU, they still would have won that game. To draw an analogy, Jordan = 2012, LeBron = 2010.

[Jumper_Dad]

Playing at their Best 2010 should win, but playing below their best 2012 wins.

 

Boogie as a pro is too much for college AD to handle, Freshman to Freshman is Boogie really the better college player?

 

IF Jodie Meeks stays for his Senior Year we may have been talking 40-0 for that team in 2010.

 

The BEST thing about comparing these two teams, they both had KENTUCKY on the front of their jersey!!!

[PurplePride92]

Playing at their Best 2010 should win, but playing below their best 2012 wins.

 

Boogie as a pro is too much for college AD to handle, Freshman to Freshman is Boogie really the better college player?

 

IF Jodie Meeks stays for his Senior Year we may have been talking 40-0 for that team in 2010.

 

The BEST thing about comparing these two teams, they both had KENTUCKY on the front of their jersey!!!

 

 

I think Boogie is getting slighted because he was the second best player on his team. As a freshman he was better than Davis offensively and despite all those dudes that Hatz named that Davis faced not a single one is or was anywhere as near as good as Boogie. Boogie gets Davis in foul trouble and the whole complexion of the game changes.

 

I'm still not buying that college Lamb is as good as college Bledsoe.

[Jumper_Dad]

I think Boogie is getting slighted because he was the second best player on his team. As a freshman he was better than Davis offensively and despite all those dudes that Hatz named that Davis faced not a single one is or was anywhere as near as good as Boogie. Boogie gets Davis in foul trouble and the whole complexion of the game changes.

 

I'm still not buying that college Lamb is as good as college Bledsoe.

 

Maybe, but Davis is also quick enough to avoid contact with Boogie so he might hang around a little longer than most expect. Davis averaged less than 2 fouls per game while Boogie averaged over 3, maybe Boogie gets in foul trouble guarding Davis off of the dribble:)

 

Bledsoe was really good, but who would you count on to hit jumpers in a big game...Bled (38%) or Lamb (46% 3pt is tough to beat)?

 

2010 wasn't the best outside shooting team as a whole either 33% and were near the worst team in the country with over 547 turnovers.

 

I think either one could beat the other on a given day, as long as UK wins I don't care