What does this 2011 Red's team need more than anything else?

[nkufan23]

He wasn't blocked by those guys. Guys get blocked by a great SS. Those guys were brought in as free agents because they didn't think he was ready.

 

With Dusty guys get blocked by his Stubbornness of bringing in Vets and stick with them until the season is practically over...They were brought in because of Janish it had nothing to do with what they thought of Cozart which was obviously not to rush him...Because he didn't get rushed like Tulo says nothing about if he was ready or not, comparing numbers which so many of us love to do Cozart has been ready as much as Tulo was...Tulo exploded once he hit the Bigs, maybe Cozart would have too...Tulo got called up for a cup of coffee in 06' when the Rocks finished 4th and 10 games under and all they had at SS was Barmes who hit .220 in a full season with a whopping 7 dingers...And Tulo played 25 games and showed nothing to end that season but in 07' the following year he started from day 1 and exploded on too the scene as the only organizational option at SS (Barmes sucked and they didn't just bring in a Vet to do it, also he had no other young SS prospect in his way like Janish, who was supposed to be the SS of the future)...But up until the point where Tulo became the Tulo of today he had done nothing more than Cozart at the same stage in their minor league careers and he was blocked by the almighty Clint Barmes and got a Sept. Callup...And in 07' with Tulo playing everyday the Rockies were 17 gms over .500...Is Cozart on Tulos level no, can he be I think so...Has he got the opportunity Tulo got to prove it no, the Reds were set on Soft J to be the SS or the future and kept bringing in Vets to ease him into to it and it worked out great

[westsider]

I said a lesser Tulo yes you seem to miss a lot when you read posts...Similar glove and Range and Similar numbers in the Minors if your going by that...Difference Tulo was not blocked and the front office didn't see him as blocked...

"Lesser Tulo" or whatever you said ... they're not comparable, period.

 

Similar numbers? Tulowizki hit .291-13-61 with a .370 OBP in Double-A at age 21, then was a quality major league shortstop the next season. Cozart was all right at Double-A (.262-10-59) at age 23, then struggled with his plate discipline (lost 50 points in OBP) when he moved up to Triple-A.

 

Cozart has been blocked by Agonz and OCab rather or not he should've been can be questioned...What was Tulo before getting the call up, very similar to Cozart...

As HammerTime stated, those guys are no one to block a real prospect. Cozart isn't up because the front office didn't think he was ready to be the shortstop at the start of the season, and there is no evidence to indicate that he was.

 

What was Tulo before getting the call up, very similar to Cozart...

About four years younger, which makes for a huge discrepancy in their ability to develop.

 

Tulo is good but I feel most people here his name and think he's a 40 Hr guy or something, he's not he is above average in every category but it is not out of the question that another player can be at his level...

There might be another player on Tulowizki's level ... Cozart isn't it.

 

Cozart is well-regarded defensively and he may indeed be the Reds' shortstop sometime this year or next year. But every time some Reds farmhand gets on a hot streak, you talk him up like he's a future star. Looking at the big picture, though, Cozart looks a like a potentially decent player, but there isn't much star-quality there.

[nkufan23]

"Lesser Tulo" or whatever you said ... they're not comparable, period.

 

Similar numbers? Tulowizki hit .291-13-61 with a .370 OBP in Double-A at age 21, then was a quality major league shortstop the next season. Cozart was all right at Double-A (.262-10-59) at age 23, then struggled with his plate discipline (lost 50 points in OBP) when he moved up to Triple-A.

 

 

As HammerTime stated, those guys are no one to block a real prospect. Cozart isn't up because the front office didn't think he was ready to be the shortstop at the start of the season, and there is no evidence to indicate that he was.

 

 

About four years younger, which makes for a huge discrepancy in their ability to develop.

 

 

There might be another player on Tulowizki's level ... Cozart isn't it.

 

Cozart is well-regarded defensively and he may indeed be the Reds' shortstop sometime this year or next year. But every time some Reds farmhand gets on a hot streak, you talk him up like he's a future star. Looking at the big picture, though, Cozart looks a like a potentially decent player, but there isn't much star-quality there.

 

Let me ask you this if Tulo was a Reds Farmhand way back when would you have jumped the gun and gave him a shot in his first full pro season just based on nice numbers? People put up nice numbers all the time, Tulo got his shot and pounced on it...I could've been hyping up Tulo as being hot and a future star SS for the Reds and in AA saying he was ready for the Bigs and you would of probably said this Tulo is well-regarded defensively and he may indeed be the Reds' shortstop sometime this year or next year. But every time some Reds farmhand gets on a hot streak, you talk him up like he's a future star. Looking at the big picture, though, Tulo looks a like a potentially decent player, but there isn't much star-quality there :lol:The point is no one knew Tulo would've turned out the way he did that early and no one knows if Cozart is ready or not...But my point was if all goes well for Cozart is see his peak as being a notch below Tulo status...We will see soon enough I think...

[westsider]

With Dusty guys get blocked by his Stubbornness of bringing in Vets and stick with them until the season is practically over...

This is June 11 ... the season isn't "practically over." Walt Jocketty didn't get to where he was by making knee-jerk reactions.

 

They were brought in because of Janish it had nothing to do with what they thought of Cozart which was obviously not to rush him...

If the Reds had thought Cozart was ready in April, he would've gotten a shot. He wasn't, and he didn't.

 

Cozart has been ready as much as Tulo was...

By what standard?

 

But up until the point where Tulo became the Tulo of today he had done nothing more than Cozart at the same stage in their minor league careers

Bull ... Tulowitzki was a better player at the same level and at a younger age ... whether you believe it or not, that is quite a bit more.

 

the Reds were set on Soft J to be the SS or the future and kept bringing in Vets to ease him into to it and it worked out great

When have the Reds ever talked up Janish as anything more than a fine glove that could handle a part-time role in the majors? The Reds have never chosen to sink or swim with him. The brought in Cabrera and Renteria because they weren't convinced he could go it alone.

[Da champ]

Reds definetly need a lead off hitter. If he could play left field or shortstop that would be great. They definetly need a lead off hitter. 1A would be a number one starter. Lord knows I still see Cueto there someday. Right now he isn't the answer. Dear Santa, this would be nice for our Reds !!

[Blue Magic]

Agreed about lead off. Jose Reyes would fix a lot of their weaknesses. Hits for average, in the lead off spot, and is great defensively. I don't really care if they'd be renting him for half of a season, I think it would turn this team around.

[futurecoach]

I say it is a legitimate leadoff man. Imo Stubbs has been given an adequate chance to prove he can do the job and has failed. He is hitting .262 with an OBP of .332 with only 26 walks and 84 Ks. He is on pace to strikeout over 210 times. Is that really what you want in a leadoff man? Stubbs himself has admitted he doesn't like the leadoff spot. With all his speed he can't steal first. He can't bunt for a hit, can't even get a bunt down for a sacrifice. He looks awful even trying to sacrifice. Is it too much to throw on a rookie like Cozart by bringing him up and slotting him in the leadoff spot where he has been batting at Louisville. Is he ready for big league pitching? Could he be any worse in the leadoff spot than Stubbs? Bringing him up could make this a better lineup by moving Stubbs down to around 6th and getting the weak hitting Janish out of the lineup. Maybe he could jumpstart this team.

 

I would like to see where Stubbs ranks against other Leadoff hitters in the Majors. I think people for some reason have the assumption that all these other teams have these great leadoff hitters, when its not true. Very few teams have leadoff hitters that really do pretty well, and don't have some major problem. I tried to find some stats for this year comparing all leadoff hitters, to see where Stubbs ranks with them. I was not able to find it, but did find an article talking about the problems all teams have when it comes to finding a leadoff hitter.

 

http://www.masnsports.com/the_goessling_game/2011/03/looking-for-a-pure-leadoff-hitter-theyre-not-easy-to-find.html

[AverageJoesGym]

Just for the numbers game...Lot's of people love this one...

Tulo at 21...104gms, 34 Doubles, 2 Triples, 13 Homers, 61 RBIs and a .291 avg...

Coz at 22...109gms, 20 Doubles, 6 Triples, 14 Homers, 49 RBIs and a .280 avg...

 

I know Tulo was at 21 and Coz at 22 but it doesn't matter it was also both of their first full minor league season...Now Tulo gets called up to the Bigs that same year to end the season and hits .240 in 25gms with 1 HR, then the following year he starts out with the Rockies and the rest is History...But he never really did anything prior to his call up that Cozart hadn't as well only the Rockies organization didn't see any other options at SS...

Coz at 23...131gms, 29 Doubles, 2 Triples, 10 Homers, 59 RBIs and a .262 avg...and 10 SB

Coz at 24...136gms, 30 Doubles, 4 Triples, 17 Homers, 67 RBIs and a .255 avg...and 30 SB

Coz at 25...54gms, 21 Doubles, 1 Triple, 6 Homers, 25 RBIs and a .327 avg...and 6 SB...This years stats

 

Now what did Tulo do that Cozart didn't do way back at the same stage of their career to earn a Big League call up and get his chance? Nothing in my eyes...Judging by the numbers game and the numbers Tulo put up before getting promoted Cozart was ready for the Bigs back in 2008...And Since 2008 Cozart has continued to prove he should get a shot...But as a person not going by numbers at all I watch him a lot and he has been ready...

 

It does matter. Those numbers were put up at different levels of the minor leagues. Cozart was in low A ball while Tulowitzki was in AA. Also, Tulowitzki had an OBP of .370 with 46 walks and 71 strikeouts while Cozart was .330 with 24 walks and 77 strikeouts. As late as last season Cozart hit .255 with 40 walks and 107 strikeouts. Also, Tulowitzki didn't just come out of no where. He was the 25th rated prospect before the 2006 season and the 15th rated prospect before the 2007 season. Cozart has been really hot so far this season but his strikeout to walk ratio is similar to what it has been in the past which means a higher percentage of balls in play have been hits, which means some of the increase in average can be attributed to luck. That usually tends to even up as the year goes along.

[Blue Magic]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6651439

[EZ Living]

The Reds certainly did not think that Janish was going to be a part-time role player. Coming into the season Dusty said that he would be the full-time shortstop and Renteria would spot start. They chose to sink or swim with him imo.

[EZ Living]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6651439

 

There is a lot of truth in what "old leatherpants" says here but that would be a lot of "ifs".

[westsider]

Just for the numbers game...Lot's of people love this one...

Tulo at 21...104gms, 34 Doubles, 2 Triples, 13 Homers, 61 RBIs and a .291 avg...

Coz at 22...109gms, 20 Doubles, 6 Triples, 14 Homers, 49 RBIs and a .280 avg...

 

I know Tulo was at 21 and Coz at 22 but it doesn't matter it was also both of their first full minor league season...

As AverageJoesGym so aptly pointed out, it does matter ... age matters, and as AJG also pointed out, Tulowitzki was playing two levels higher on the minor-league ladder.

 

JJudging by the numbers game and the numbers Tulo put up before getting promoted Cozart was ready for the Bigs back in 2008...

Utterly ridiculous ... he wasn't close to ready in 2008. He's only now showing that he's worthy of a promotion to the majors.

[Blue Magic]

There is a lot of truth in what "old leatherpants" says here but that would be a lot of "ifs".

 

I don't know if there are that many ridiculous "ifs," though. Like he said the Reds can commit to Mesaraco, get rid of Grandal, if a contact extension could be worked out then they could unload Hamilton/Cozart....I don't know I think it's doable and worth it. It would give the Reds the best lineup in the NL, IMO. The Phillies are the only team I can think that would even come close.

 

Reyes > Rollins

Phillips = Utley

Votto> Howard

Bruce> Brown

Hernandez = if not > Ruiz

Rolen

Stubbs

[westsider]

The Reds certainly did not think that Janish was going to be a part-time role player. Coming into the season Dusty said that he would be the full-time shortstop and Renteria would spot start. They chose to sink or swim with him imo.

Best I recall, when Renteria was signed the reports out of Cincinnati were that the two would more or less share the position, with perhaps Janish getting a little more playing time.

[westsider]

I don't know if there are that many ridiculous "ifs," though. Like he said the Reds can commit to Mesaraco, get rid of Grandal, if a contact extension could be worked out then they could unload Hamilton/Cozart....I don't know I think it's doable and worth it. It would give the Reds the best lineup in the NL, IMO. The Phillies are the only team I can think that would even come close.

 

Reyes > Rollins

Phillips = Utley

Votto> Howard

Bruce> Brown

Hernandez = if not > Ruiz

Rolen

Stubbs Phillips is not equal to Utley, if Utley is healthy.

 

The Phillies don't have the best lineup in the NL, either, in my opinion ... they're 10th in the league in runs per game.