What does this 2011 Red's team need more than anything else?

[EZ Living]

As AverageJoesGym so aptly pointed out, it does matter ... age matters, and as AJG also pointed out, Tulowitzki was playing two levels higher on the minor-league ladder.

 

 

Utterly ridiculous ... he wasn't close to ready in 2008. He's only now showing that he's worthy of a promotion to the majors.

 

Many players don't reach their potential until the age of 27. Votto's first full year in the bigs he was 25 years old.

[westsider]

Many players don't reach their potential until the age of 27. Votto's first full year in the bigs he was 25 years old.

Actually, Votto was 24 for all but three weeks of his first full year in the majors.

 

Age matters ... if two prospects are playing identically well at the same level and one is 21 and the other is 24, the 21-year-old is the better prospect because (1) he reached that level of performance earlier and (2) he has much more potential to develop over the long haul.

 

Votto had shown by age 23 that he was close to being ready for the major leagues and he was called up for good just before he turned 24. As a general rule, the earlier a position player makes it to the majors for good (in terms if age), the more potential he has to develop.

[Blue Magic]

Phillips is not equal to Utley, if Utley is healthy.

 

The Phillies don't have the best lineup in the NL, either, in my opinion ... they're 10th in the league in runs per game.

 

Common misconception. Look at their numbers. Utley had a great couple seasons (06-07 I believe) but otherwise he's never hit over .300 and has similar number to Phillips outside of those two seasons. Phillips is a tad lower on average and HRs, but always has around the same amount of hits. Not to mention he's always hurt nowadays.

 

And your second statement has nothing to add to the discussion. If they aren't the next best, who is? St. Louis? If so, who has the better lineup?

[EZ Living]

Best I recall, when Renteria was signed the reports out of Cincinnati were that the two would more or less share the position, with perhaps Janish getting a little more playing time.

 

Dusty was asked this when Renteria was signed and he said Janish was his everyday shortstop and didn't have to worry that Renteria would be taking his job on a regular basis. You can find that in the Red's offseason threads.

[westsider]

Common misconception.

You're darn right it's common, and it's no misconception ... Utley has finished in the top 10 in MVP voting three times and was in the top 15 on two other occasions. Phillips has never come close to that.

 

Look at their numbers. Utley had a great couple seasons (06-07 I believe) but otherwise he's never hit over .300 and has similar number to Phillips outside of those two seasons. Phillips is a tad lower on average and HRs, but always has around the same amount of hits. Not to mention he's always hurt nowadays.

They've both been regulars for the last five seasons, from 2006-10. These are their average numbers in that span:

 

Utley ... .299-27-93, .390 OBP, .520 SLP

Phillips ... .275-21-81, .326 OBP, .447 SLP

 

Not even close ... 60-point differences in OBP and SLP and a 120-point edge in OPS are huge. And that's even with Utley suffering two major injuries, one on a HBP that might have cost him the MVP award in 2007 and the missed time after hip surgery before last season.

 

Some of the defensive metrics even rate Utley's defense above that of Phillips, even though the latter has won two Gold Gloves.

[westsider]

Dusty was asked this when Renteria was signed and he said Janish was his everyday shortstop and didn't have to worry that Renteria would be taking his job on a regular basis. You can find that in the Red's offseason threads.

Even if that's the case, it's clear that the signing of Renteria was an indication that the Reds weren't totally sinking or swimming with Janish, given that he's been a subpar hitter for nearly all of his professional career. Edited June 11, 2011 by westsider

[EZ Living]

Gametime posted this quote from Jocketty on 1/10/11 after the Renteria signing, (Walt said on WLW tonight that Janish is the starter at SS and Renteria was brought in as a "complimentary player...").

[HammerTime]

They should be complementing each other in AAA.

[HammerTime]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6651439

 

It's hard to take anything he says seriously. :lol:

[Blue Magic]

It's hard to take anything he says seriously. :lol:

 

Fair enough. I said this morning, and I still think, that the Reds should make a move for him.

[westsider]

Gametime posted this quote from Jocketty on 1/10/11 after the Renteria signing, (Walt said on WLW tonight that Janish is the starter at SS and Renteria was brought in as a "complimentary player...").

Again, the Renteria signing was an indication that the Reds weren't sinking or swimming with Janish. If the Reds were certain Janish would handle the job, Renteria wouldn't be a Red.

[Blue Magic]

You're darn right it's common, and it's no misconception ... Utley has finished in the top 10 in MVP voting three times and was in the top 15 on two other occasions. Phillips has never come close to that.

 

 

They've both been regulars for the last five seasons, from 2006-10. These are their average numbers in that span:

 

Utley ... .299-27-93, .390 OBP, .520 SLP

Phillips ... .275-21-81, .326 OBP, .447 SLP

 

Not even close ... 60-point differences in OBP and SLP and a 120-point edge in OPS are huge. And that's even with Utley suffering two major injuries, one on a HBP that might have cost him the MVP award in 2007 and the missed time after hip surgery before last season.

 

Some of the defensive metrics even rate Utley's defense above that of Phillips, even though the latter has won two Gold Gloves.

 

You're going back a half of a decade. Let's look at the past 3 seasons:

 

Phillips - .278 BA (404 hits) 191 RBIs (a lot of time in the 2 hole. Utley hits 3rd for the most part), 43 HRs, .423 Slugging in 368 games

Utley - .276 (292 hits) 162 RBIs, 48 HRs, .427 Slugging in 287 games.

 

It's crazy to think Utley is head and shoulders better than Phillips. Five years ago, there was no debate. Now, it's a legit debate, IMO. Clearly Utley has more power, but Phillips is a two hole hitter, not the three. They don't need him to hit 35 home runs a year, or drive in 100 runs.

[westsider]

You're going back a half of a decade. Let's look at the past 3 seasons:

 

Phillips - .278 BA (404 hits) 191 RBIs (a lot of time in the 2 hole. Utley hits 3rd for the most part), 43 HRs, .423 Slugging in 368 games

Utley - .276 (292 hits) 162 RBIs, 48 HRs, .427 Slugging in 287 games.

 

It's crazy to think Utley is head and shoulders better than Phillips. Five years ago, there was no debate. Now, it's a legit debate, IMO. Clearly Utley has more power, but Phillips is a two hole hitter, not the three. They don't need him to hit 35 home runs a year, or drive in 100 runs.

Even now, the only reason there is doubt is the concern with Utley's health.

 

Over the last two full seasons:

 

Utley ... .279-24-79, .393 OBP, .481 SLP

Phillips ... .275-19-78, .330 OBP, .438 SLP

 

Again. that's a 60-point difference in OBP and a 100-point difference in OPS. I guess you don't count that stuff.

Edited June 11, 2011 by westsider

[Blue Magic]

Even now, the only reason there is doubt is the concern with Utley's health.

 

Over the last two full seasons:

 

Utley ... .279-24-79, .393 OBP, .481 SLP

Phillips ... .275-19-78, .330 OBP., .438 SLP

 

Again. that's a 60-point difference in OBP and a 100-point difference in OPS. I guess you don't count that stuff.

 

And I guess you don't count how bad injuries hurt your team...:idunno: Give me the guy with 60 points less on the OBP if he's going to be healthy all season.

[spindoc]

In Phillips defense, he's been jacked around in this lineup by the toothpick like a pingpong ball. Defensively, I give the nod to BP. And minus the numbers, with health equal, I'd take Utley at the plate every single day.