A Stupid Idea?

[Fastbreak]

As yes, FB, I have watched your video. I did some background research on the (former?) Muslim they interviewed and it would appear that he's anything but an impartial judge of what's going on. He's Arab, yes, but in terms of his beliefs, he might as well be Israeli.

What is the mystical virtue of being "impartial"?

 

I don't know anyone that is truly "impartial".

 

You certainly are not. RM, Habib Cammando, Run to State... no one on this site is "impartial".

 

Are you saying that since this guy has chosen a side he is disqualified to comment on the activities of a fellow Arab playing for the other team?

 

How could we possibly trust any of the information disclosed by our intelligence officers on the activities of our adversaries if being "impartial" is the gold standard of credibility? I can see now I have no reason to pay any attention at all to what Keith Olberman, Chris Matthews, Katie Couric, et. al. might have to say about Republicans, conservatives, Sarah Palin, etc.

 

So, the fact that Shoebat is fluent in Arabic, and able to translate what the Imam is saying in his Arabic writings, speeches and interviews... he is to be discounted because he has an "opinion" about what he is translating? I mean, it's not like any other Arab can't come along and say, "Mr. Shoebat is lying. His interpretation is false. The Imam actually said... blah, blah, blah... and this is why."

 

This is one of the silliest things I've ever heard.

 

I can understand why some may want this thread closed... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Edited August 13, 2010 by Fastbreak

[Fastbreak]

As yes, FB, I have watched your video.

On a positive note... at least you actually stepped up and watched the video. :thumb:

 

I genuinely applaud you for doing so. :thumb:

 

If it turned out that Mr. Shoebat is credible in his interpretation and commentary on this matter, would you at least concede that some of us have a valid basis for our concerns?

[cammando]

"President Obama is wrong," said Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y. "It is insensitive and uncaring for the Muslim community to build a mosque in the shadow of ground zero. While the Muslim community has the right to build the mosque they are abusing that right by needlessly offending so many people who have suffered so much." http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_ground_zero_mosque_obama

[cammando]

More... http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100814/ts_afp/uspoliticsreligionattacksobama_20100814172344

[cammando]

Even Reid is distancing himself from Obama and his ideas... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100816/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_ground_zero_mosque_reid

[Clyde]

A few questions:

 

Are those opposed to this opposed due to it being a mosque specifically? Is the purpose of the building the issue or would anything "Islamic" be a problem?

 

Since most opposed (I'm assuming) will grant that Islamic mosques are OK but just not near WTC what is "near?" What's the closest you would allow it if you were king?

 

Opposition seems to be because of what a small percentage of Muslims represent to us Americans. We generalize that the religion is evil and those that are Muslim do not deserve freedom like "real" Americans. So, with that said, tell me again why we went into Iraq. As someone pointed out it seemed to be to "free" the good people of Iraq (Muslims) from tyranny. So if , on one hand, we lump the Isams into one big group that represents evil why are we OK with sending thousands of Americans to their death to free evil people?

[SKINPIG]

A few questions:

 

Are those opposed to this opposed due to it being a mosque specifically? Is the purpose of the building the issue or would anything "Islamic" be a problem?

 

Since most opposed (I'm assuming) will grant that Islamic mosques are OK but just not near WTC what is "near?" What's the closest you would allow it if you were king?

 

Opposition seems to be because of what a small percentage of Muslims represent to us Americans. We generalize that the religion is evil and those that are Muslim do not deserve freedom like "real" Americans. So, with that said, tell me again why we went into Iraq. As someone pointed out it seemed to be to "free" the good people of Iraq (Muslims) from tyranny. So if , on one hand, we lump the Isams into one big group that represents evil why are we OK with sending thousands of Americans to their death to free evil people?

 

 

 

I'll take the easy way out Clyde. I can't say that I'm opposed to the mosque being built. I just think it's a bad idea. If something directly or indirectly (even if ignorantly) breeds ill feelings due to a tragedy such as 911, it seems to me that the ones building the mosque should maybe reconsider the location. It's not like a business that will lose money if moved to a different location. Right or wrong, if I offended thousands of people by building my garage on the east side of my yard, I wouldn't care a bit to build it on the west side instead. The ones wanting to build the mosque know that many are opposed so why not build it somewhere else? No skin off their teeth, right? And they are a peace loving fantastic religion after all, right?

[Clyde]

I'll take the easy way out Clyde. I can't say that I'm opposed to the mosque being built. I just think it's a bad idea. If something directly or indirectly (even if ignorantly) breeds ill feelings due to a tragedy such as 911, it seems to me that the ones building the mosque should maybe reconsider the location. It's not like a business that will lose money if moved to a different location. Right or wrong, if I offended thousands of people by building my garage on the east side of my yard, I wouldn't care a bit to build it on the west side instead. The ones wanting to build the mosque know that many are opposed so why not build it somewhere else? No skin off their teeth, right? And they are a peace loving fantastic religion after all, right?

 

What if it's not a mosque? What if its a Muslim rec center?

[SKINPIG]

What if it's not a mosque? What if its a Muslim rec center?

 

Whatever it is, right or wrong, if you're a peace lover like you say you are, why not just avoid the mess and build it somewhere else? I would, wouldn't you?

[Fastbreak]

What if it's not a mosque? What if its a Muslim rec center?

Lots of interesting possibilities arise as I think about the Village People singing about the YMMA... :lol:

[Clyde]

Whatever it is, right or wrong, if you're a peace lover like you say you are, why not just avoid the mess and build it somewhere else? I would, wouldn't you?

 

So anything Muslim related - school/mosque/rec center/store selling Korans cannot be "near" the WTC. You didn't answer my question as to the definition of "near."

 

Secondly, if it was simply a rec center ie a gathering place for kids to play basketball or adults to learn how to cook what's the harm?

 

Lastly, you didn't answer the question about the seemingly contradictory stance of "fighting for the Muslims in Iraq to be free" vs "We don't want no stupid Muslims around WTC." If they're evil or if their religion is evil how do you justify your neighbors and my neighbors going off to Iraq to risk their life?

[Bluegrasscard]

What if it's not a mosque? What if its a Muslim rec center?

 

I believe the current location, or half of it, is already a Muslim rec center. I think its an 'overflow' location for another nearby Islamic center. In that function it appears to have been operating just fine.

 

It deserves different attention when it will become a 13 story center, 50,000 square foot mega structure that is unprecedented in size for any religion in the Manhattan area. And the imam spear heading the project wrote a book about his desire to perform dawa (Islamic recruiting) from the 'rubble of the WTC' in 2004 and he wants to name the center after a mosque in Spain that was built over top of church in a symbol of Islamic conquest.

 

This project is what it is and its purpose can not be misconstrued. It is not just a simple gathering place for those of a particular religion.

 

A good wiki on the subject and background:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordoba_House

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mosque_of_C%C3%B3rdoba

[rockmom]

Some general questions, rambling thoughts:

 

The argument that Ground Zero is hallowed ground is interesting to me, with respect to using it an argument against a mosque or cultural center being located near there. I agree that Ground Zero is hallowed ground. But isn't it hallowed for all faiths, all nationalities? It may be the most universally "hallowed ground" in the world, in terms of the number of different peoples were affected by what happened on 9/11/01.

 

There are many, many ways that this country can heal from 9/11. To interject a bit of Christian teaching here, forgiveness is a key element in the Christian faith.

 

Regardless of the what any faith organization believes, regardless of what we define as "wisdom" in this instance, the right to build or locate any house of worship on that site is perfectly legal, and perfectly within the rights of the group.

 

The article linked earlier about Harry Reid denouncing the site of the center cracks me up. He's running against Angle, a strong, STRONG Republican opponent. Forgive me if I feel his comments are motivated to not lose more ground, and less in really caring one way or another.

 

I've been reading voraciously to see what the area in the radius of the hallowed ground consists of in terms of cultural clues. It seems it already hosts several mosques within a few block radius. Some are fundamental in nature, others progressive. The area has a large number of Muslim-practicing citizens and businesses.

 

Back to the "within sight" of Ground Zero. Taking into consideration the height of the buildings when they stood, one could theoretically use the argument that much of NYC was "within sight" of the WTC. I could see this becoming a rallying cry to keep such a center from most places in NYC.

 

And another question, what if the IRA had succeeded in attempts to wreak such havoc, would, then, Catholic Churches be the target of such protest?

 

Just a lot of rambling thoughts.

[Hatz]

To follow up rockmom I have a question:

 

Why haven't we built a memorial there yet? It's been 9 years and still no memorial or building has been erected. Memorials have a way of bringing closure to tragedy and allowing the grieving and hurting to move on with life. The wound seldom begins to heal until that point.

 

If there were a memorial already present would we be able to get past the mosque and it's location?

 

Just curious.

[Clyde]

What do we tell the families of many American-Muslims that were killed in the WTC including those of first responders?