Atheisim, Agnosticism, Secularism vs. Religion

[TheFrontRowFan]

Actually Acts was written by Luke (the Gospel Writer). It contains the story of Saul, who became Paul. It also speaks of the way in which the "Good News" broke down barriers for Jews and Gentiles and spread around the Meditarenan (sp?).

 

Apparently modern scholarship doubts that the writer of Luke's gospel and the writer of Acts were indeed the same person.

 

The evidence is too lengthy for me to list, so here is a URL discussing.

 

http://christianorigins.com/bylandbysea.html

[Fastbreak]

To Christians and notice that is says DESTROY the soul - not torment it forever (sounds rather annihilationist to me)

DESTRUCTION, again to Christians

The verse says "everlasting destruction" why add "everlasting" to a singular, once-and-for-all-event? Is this perhaps different than being totally annihilated?

I can see where your redefined teddy bear Jesus who rewards everyone whether they accept Him or not, or want to be with Him or not, or will agree to bow their knee to His Lordship or not can be very beguiling. Nothing to fear… just go ahead and do your evil deeds… a truly loving God cannot possibly send anyone He has created to a fiery hell.

 

The problem in my view is how a truly loving God can possibly expose those who love Him to the ravages of those who don’t… for eternity. That would not be Heaven.

Many feel this fire is a purifying one, leading to redemption, like the ember on Isaiah's (i think) lips.

How great would this be? Live however you want, reject God and His Son He sent to be beaten, spat upon, cursed and nailed to a cross, party hardy… and then receive a brief toasting to a succulent medium rare and enter into Heaven anyway.

 

I’m not going to say this can’t or won’t happen… only that I wouldn’t want to bet my eternal destiny on it.

Either you are intentionally misleading or you simply misread

 

Luke 16:1 says - Jesus told his disciples

Luke 16:14 says - The pharisess who love money . . and he said to them, so this story was told to the pharisees. As I said earlier

I did neither. If you read...

 

Luke 14: 25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said:

 

Like 15:1-3 Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear him. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them." Then Jesus told them this parable:

To his disciples - again. Also the description is about the fire not being quenched, not about people burning forever

I can understand how this would only be an issue if you happened to be one of the people in the fire that burns forever…

To his disciples

You are apparently asserting that where Jesus taught His disciples, or spoke to the Pharisees in the presence of His disciples, it somehow didn’t apply to the rest of us. I don’t follow your reasoning here at all.

 

I would assume that you would agree that the Sermon on the Mount was intended for all of us. (But I have learned it is not safe to assume anything with you… :lol: ) It begins: Matthew 5:1-2 Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, and he began to teach them, saying:

Show me where Jews, especially orthodox believe in an eternal hell . . . you can't. They did not.

Jesus was Jewish. He was called “Rabbi” in His time on earth. He clearly believed and taught the reality of an eternal hell. You cannot square your claim without totally ignoring His teaching in Matthew 25:31-46.

[Hatz]

Apparently modern scholarship doubts that the writer of Luke's gospel and the writer of Acts were indeed the same person.

 

The evidence is too lengthy for me to list, so here is a URL discussing.

 

http://christianorigins.com/bylandbysea.html

 

Actually I'm very aware of the debate about authorship. I was taking the easiest path by citing traditional interpretation. I know that authorship attribution is important to many but I have long been aware that many things were written by "schools of disciples." I don't feel the notion that JEDP sources are the authors of most of the material in the Pentateuch rather than Moses in anyway impedes God's message that lies within.

[acemona]

FASTBREAK

 

Luke 14 and 15 are distinctly different from 16. Using those scriputes to say that in 16 he was talking to everyone is like using Luke 1.

 

In Luke 16 he is talking to the Pharisees

 

14The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight. 16"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

 

Luke 15 talks about love and forgiveness and the waiting father, read literally and hopefully it falls much more along the path I have taken than the path you have taken in belief of what the afterlife is like. I am like John Donne in that I ascribe to Jesus as the Hound of Heaven who will continue to search us down even in the next "life."

 

Matthew 25 is even more problematic for inerrantists and literalists. Verses 31 - 46 talk about getting to heaven based on the treatment of other people. There is not one mention of the sheep believing in anything, simply taking care of the weak and oppressed. Given that, do you HAVE to believe in Jesus to go to heaven? What if you do believe in Jesus as the Savior, yet you don't take care of the weak and oppressed are you going to hell?

 

"There will be those who say "Lord, Lord" who do not see heaven".

 

LBBC and I discussed Matthew 25 once before and he said that the talk was being delivered to christians who already believed therefore Jesus didn't have to talk about that . . . well, I disagree, but if I did agree it simply strengthens may argument that he did not talk about hell to non-believers.

[acemona]

To Be Perfectly Clear -

 

I HAVE NEVER SAID THERE IS NO HELL.

 

I HAVE SAID THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS A LITERAL FIERY VERSION OF HELL.

 

I truly believe that when people die they will be as close or as far away from God as they have chose. The further away from God they are, the more miserable there existence will be, for without God there is no "light", no love, no peace, no joy - I don't want to exist in this place.

 

However, I am HOPEFUL that even in the miserable existence there will still exist the possibility of God's love breaking through to the individual and causing them to "repent" or turn toward God.

 

How does this belief effect my salvation - if I am a literalist it does not, because my salvation, in literal terms is based on my declaring myself a sinner and entering into a relation with Jesus/God for my redemption. My salvation does not depend on my belief in a literal hell, or even a literal interpretation of the Bible.

 

However, I believe that my "salvation" is actually a process. Paul even said to work your salvation out daily. It is not a decision I made when I was 8 it IS A RELATIONSHIP I AM DEVELOPING WITH JESUS.

 

Who are you to question my personal salvation b/c I disagree with some of YOUR interpretation of the scripture? Why is my revelation of the gospel through the Holy Spirit not as RIGHT as yours?

 

You see, there has to be some relativism in Salvation b/c it is MY salvation not OURS. I have to have a PERSONAL relationship with God, not one dictated by outside forces. God has to reveal God's nature to ME.

 

Each of you may be absolutely correct in what you say in regards to Hell, but that is not what has been revealed to me, of course, I may be way wrong and I am continuing to work that out.

[ladiesbballcoach]

To Be Perfectly Clear -

 

I HAVE NEVER SAID THERE IS NO HELL.

 

I HAVE SAID THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS A LITERAL FIERY VERSION OF HELL.

 

I truly believe that when people die they will be as close or as far away from God as they have chose. The further away from God they are, the more miserable there existence will be, for without God there is no "light", no love, no peace, no joy - I don't want to exist in this place.

 

However, I am HOPEFUL that even in the miserable existence there will still exist the possibility of God's love breaking through to the individual and causing them to "repent" or turn toward God.

 

How does this belief effect my salvation - if I am a literalist it does not, because my salvation, in literal terms is based on my declaring myself a sinner and entering into a relation with Jesus/God for my redemption. My salvation does not depend on my belief in a literal hell, or even a literal interpretation of the Bible.

 

However, I believe that my "salvation" is actually a process. Paul even said to work your salvation out daily. It is not a decision I made when I was 8 it IS A RELATIONSHIP I AM DEVELOPING WITH JESUS.

 

Who are you to question my personal salvation b/c I disagree with some of YOUR interpretation of the scripture? Why is my revelation of the gospel through the Holy Spirit not as RIGHT as yours?

 

You see, there has to be some relativism in Salvation b/c it is MY salvation not OURS. I have to have a PERSONAL relationship with God, not one dictated by outside forces. God has to reveal God's nature to ME.

 

Each of you may be absolutely correct in what you say in regards to Hell, but that is not what has been revealed to me, of course, I may be way wrong and I am continuing to work that out.

 

Good post.:thumb:

 

The way I see your 7th paragraph is that we are Christians debating and looking at Scripture. You have challenged my view of it and either I change or grow firmer in it. That is what I hope we have done for you. Challenge it and as you say, "work it out."

 

My faith has grown stronger and my knowledge more from the debate with Fan as much as it has recently in any other regards. Because I have had to look and study issues, I have not studied before. I have had to pray and consider issues I have had to give a 2nd look to.

 

My view of the church has to be a helping hand to our community has grown stronger with the posts you have posted. As in that regard we are in 100% agreement.

[acemona]

Good post.:thumb:

 

The way I see your 7th paragraph is that we are Christians debating and looking at Scripture. You have challenged my view of it and either I change or grow firmer in it. That is what I hope we have done for you. Challenge it and as you say, "work it out."

 

My faith has grown stronger and my knowledge more from the debate with Fan as much as it has recently in any other regards. Because I have had to look and study issues, I have not studied before. I have had to pray and consider issues I have had to give a 2nd look to.

 

My view of the church has to be a helping hand to our community has grown stronger with the posts you have posted. As in that regard we are in 100% agreement.

 

Why, thank you;)

 

The only reason I come here is to be challenged and to grow. My problem is I get snippy sometimes:argue:

 

What I put on here are never declarations of truth, but the truth as I see it right now, hopefully I will grow and evolve and I will see things more clearly and you JUST MIGHT change my mind.

[HHSDad]

King James called and wants BGP to pay him a royalty.

[ladiesbballcoach]

Why, thank you;)

 

The only reason I come here is to be challenged and to grow. My problem is I get snippy sometimes:argue:

 

What I put on here are never declarations of truth, but the truth as I see it right now, hopefully I will grow and evolve and I will see things more clearly and you JUST MIGHT change my mind.

 

Luke 11:9-10 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

 

 

9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

 

emphasis mine.

 

I can honestly say that my faith has grown tremendously in the past 2 years and approximate 23,000 posts here on BGP.

 

I have altered my view on things and deepened my view on things. I have a WHOLE different perspective of Catholicism, via RM, than when I first came to BGP. While I disagree with some of their dogma, I see them as brothers in Christ and I am not sure that I saw it that way when I first started posting.

 

And, not surprisingly, to any on here, my position on abortion has went to firm to set in concrete.

 

In addition, you have helped me even more believe that the churches in this country are failing this country by sitting back too much and waiting for people to show up at our doors on Sunday mornings instead of getting out and getting into the communities.