It seems they are not fallible if they are scientists.:sssh:

 

 

I, nor anyone else that I've came across on this board, have never said that scientists were not fallible. The difference, however, is that a scientist's words and work can be tested to prove its fallibilty. On the contrary, we have to have "faith" that God is.

I am interested in your saying "I agree that humans are falliable, but beyond that we simply disagree." What exactly do you mean? That humans are falliable but that hopefully they were right when they wrote the Bible?

The Bible is no accident. There are too many verifiable facts for it to have been coincidental.

 

There are over 300 prophecies specifically referring to the Messiah... all written from 1,000 to 400 year before He was born... from where and how He would be born, to how He would live, to very specific details about how He would die... (400 years before Romans had even invented crucifixion.) Jesus fulfilled every one of them. The odds of any human in history coincidentally fulfilling just 8 out of 8 prophecies is one chance in one hundred million billion. That's a one followed by 17 zeroes. That's enough quarters to cover the state of Kentucky more than nine feet deep.

 

For any one person to fulfill 48 out of 48 prophecies would equate to one chance in 10 to the 157th power... a one followed by 157 zeroes. It only takes 10 to the 80th power to fill the universe with electrons.

 

You can doubt all you want. Christianity is the only religion in the world in which God Himself died to cleanse our sins and restore us to Him. I choose to worship a King who would so lovingly come and die for me.

Absolutley not. My family are all Christian and most of my friends are Christian if not simply believers in the Christian interpretation of God. I have been treated fairly well by everyone within the faith. However, my eyes are not closed to the injustice and hatefulness that I see the faith extend towards others. I mean when a preacher tells his congregation to not watch Disney cartoons because its so evident that Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse are gay (true story) or to not go to prom because the school is holding it on the night before a Sunday (also a true story) than its getting quite a bit out of hand.

Idiots and hypocrites exist in all faiths and walks of life. In Islam, they strap bombs to themselves and blow up innocent people of all ages. In other faiths they bathe in bovine urine and drink filthy water from a horribly polluted river or eat food wallowed in and defecated on by sacred rats. They have sacrificed other humans to idols, or committed prostitution in the name of their deities.

 

The fact that some knuckleheads screwed things up so badly is exactly why Jesus had to come do what He did. The fact that they keep screwing up, is why our eyes need to be on Jesus... not the flawed people who claim to represent Him.

 

Just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn't automatically render all their thoughts and deeds holy.

The Bible is no accident. There are too many verifiable facts for it to have been coincidental.

 

There are over 300 prophecies specifically referring to the Messiah... all written from 1,000 to 400 year before He was born... from where and how He would be born, to how He would live, to very specific details about how He would die... (400 years before Romans had even invented crucifixion.) Jesus fulfilled every one of them. The odds of any human in history coincidentally fulfilling just 8 out of 8 prophecies is one chance in one hundred million billion. That's a one followed by 17 zeroes. That's enough quarters to cover the state of Kentucky more than nine feet deep.

 

For any one person to fulfill 48 out of 48 prophecies would equate to one chance in 10 to the 157th power... a one followed by 157 zeroes. It only takes 10 to the 80th power to fill the universe with electrons.

 

You can doubt all you want. Christianity is the only religion in the world in which God Himself died to cleanse our sins and restore us to Him. I choose to worship a King who would so lovingly come and die for me.

 

 

But you are simply taking the Gospel's account of Christ's life as proof that he fulfilled these prophecies. Just because Christ's followers wrote down that he fullfilled these prophecies means nothing. We have to have historical evidence outside of the writings of his followers.

But you are simply taking the Gospel's account of Christ's life as proof that he fulfilled these prophecies. Just because Christ's followers wrote down that he fullfilled these prophecies means nothing. We have to have historical evidence outside of the writings of his followers.

No offense Fan, but the fact that I am deeply convicted there is a spiritual dimension we cannot currently see, inhabited by spiritual beings some good some bad, and headed by a mighty God I love because He first loved me.... and the fact that I believe there will be a place I will spend eternity based upon the logic of my decisions, leads me to believe that I may just value my soul more than someone who either denies it or isn't sure it exists. I say this to say, I have spent years diligently studying not only the Bible, but every major world religion and many minor religions and Christian cults and denominations. I sincerely do not wish to leave my eternal destiny to chance or nothing more than warm and fuzzy feelings.

 

As I have read your posts, I'm torn between thinking you're a guy who is fascinated with the sound of his own words, who thinks he might just be the smartest guy in the room, and wants to make sure everyone else thinks so too. Or, you are someone genuinely torn... someone who wants to believe as he reads the words of others who seem to be so committed to their beliefs. You just need more evidence to hang your "faith" on.

 

Which one is it Fan? If you're just a clanging cymbal, I'm tired of wasting my time. It's been said that a fool can ask more questions than a wise man can answer. I'm not suggesting that you or I are either one of those. The point is, this could go on forever with no resolution. I have more important things to do than wrestle with you just because you enjoy wrestling.

 

If on the other hand all your arguements and assertions are posted because you feel that the church has in some way let you down, but at the same time you also realize there has to be more to the story than what the atheists and scientists have been able to prove by their faith in nothing, then I'm all ears. Let's question and figure this thing out together.

 

The answers are there, and waiting to be found and understood, but there's no way I'm going to do all the lifting for you. I'm not cold hearted, I simply understand that to have any lasting meaning, the answers require a bit of effort on your part.

 

There is abundant documentation regarding the historicity of Jesus' existence and circumstances in the contemporary writings of "non-apostles". There is other compelling evidence available based upon the recorded history. An excellent place to start would be, "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel, and "More Than A Carpenter" by Josh McDowell. Both are available in paperback for a few dollars each, and would save me the time of transcribing theri copyrighted material to BGP. The best thing about these authors is that they-like you-began their search as devout agnostics seeking to disprove the Gospel and Godhood of Christ. After digging deeply enough, they found otherwise.

 

I, nor anyone else that I've came across on this board, have never said that scientists were not fallible. The difference, however, is that a scientist's words and work can be tested to prove its fallibilty. On the contrary, we have to have "faith" that God is.

 

And how can they prove or disprove the Big Bang theory? Have they proven evolution and the puddle of goo theory? Or are those accepted as accurate. Similar to the way other scientific theories were deemed accurate and then found out the world wasn't flat and the Earth wasn't the center of the universe.

 

While 250 years from now, they may be able to disprove both, that does not mean diddly or squat in the unproven and not capable of being proven theories of leading people to thoughts that are simply thoughts.

 

I again think it calls for more illogical faith to believe in Big Bang and puddle of goo than it does a Christian God.

But you are simply taking the Gospel's account of Christ's life as proof that he fulfilled these prophecies. Just because Christ's followers wrote down that he fullfilled these prophecies means nothing. We have to have historical evidence outside of the writings of his followers.

 

Not really you don't. Almost all were horribly executed for their beliefs. Why would Peter be crucified upside down instead of refuting the Christ story, if it was a scam. Why would Stephen's last words indicate he was seeing the glory of heaven as he was stoned to death instead of begging for them to stop as he refuted the Christ story? Because he knew the purpose of staying firm in his faith till the very end, no matter what the end actually was.

 

Why would Paul change from killing Christians to leading Christians even in the midst of death threats and prison if the story he was telling was not true? Why would he suffer in prison for a lie?

 

Jesus appeared to thousands. How easy would it have been to prove the story as false when the claim was that he appeared to thousands? Yet it wasn't. But just the opposite occurred. Thousands came to the fold upon the claims. Claims that should have been easy to disprove at that time.

An excellent place to start would be, "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel,

I'll go a step farther. If you are the latter in FB's question and serious about wanting to know, PM me your address and I will purchase a copy of Case for Christ and mail it to you.:thumb:

 

I got a $25 gift card from Family Christian for Christmas that I will gladly use to bring a Christian back to the Christian mindset. If you are this good at arguing against Christ, I think it is a great investment in what you could do FOR CHRIST's message.

Before I respond, let me just say that I thank you for your honesty..

 

Now let be me be honest...

 

No offense Fan, but the fact that I am deeply convicted there is a spiritual dimension we cannot currently see, inhabited by spiritual beings some good some bad, and headed by a mighty God I love because He first loved me.... and the fact that I believe there will be a place I will spend eternity based upon the logic of my decisions, leads me to believe that I may just value my soul more than someone who either denies it or isn't sure it exists. I say this to say, I have spent years diligently studying not only the Bible, but every major world religion and many minor religions and Christian cults and denominations. I sincerely do not wish to leave my eternal destiny to chance or nothing more than warm and fuzzy feelings.

 

I am sure you do "value" your soul more than I do....I don't even know if I have one. If the soul is believed to be something spiritual that is seperable from our body - there is no way for me to know if I truly have one.

 

I respect you for studying various religions and religious texts and used that to base your own life decision on. I did the same - and you know my decision.

 

As I have read your posts, I'm torn between thinking you're a guy who is fascinated with the sound of his own words, who thinks he might just be the smartest guy in the room, and wants to make sure everyone else thinks so too. Or, you are someone genuinely torn... someone who wants to believe as he reads the words of others who seem to be so committed to their beliefs. You just need more evidence to hang your "faith" on.

 

Fast, I am not so narcistic that I would enjoy the own sound of my worrd. Afterall, don't you think I could find a better means than a message board if I wanted to "hear" my words? And I do not think I am the smartest guy in the room - afterall I misspelled "naive".

 

In all seriousness though - I am not torn on anything. I am quite confident with my decision, though one has to admit - how interesting would a religion forum be if a myriad of Christians from the bible belt debated things thay all pretty much agree on en masse?

 

I simply am humble enough to admit that there is no way of knowing. While I know that faith is an important componet of many people's religion - it means nothing to me (in a religious - belief in an unproveable God kind of way.)

 

I don't think you are trying to censor my ability to reflect my "beliefs."

 

Which one is it Fan? If you're just a clanging cymbal, I'm tired of wasting my time. It's been said that a fool can ask more questions than a wise man can answer. I'm not suggesting that you or I are either one of those. The point is, this could go on forever with no resolution. I have more important things to do than wrestle with you just because you enjoy wrestling.

 

If on the other hand all your arguements and assertions are posted because you feel that the church has in some way let you down, but at the same time you also realize there has to be more to the story than what the atheists and scientists have been able to prove by their faith in nothing, then I'm all ears. Let's question and figure this thing out together.

 

The answers are there, and waiting to be found and understood, but there's no way I'm going to do all the lifting for you. I'm not cold hearted, I simply understand that to have any lasting meaning, the answers require a bit of effort on your part.

 

There is abundant documentation regarding the historicity of Jesus' existence and circumstances in the contemporary writings of "non-apostles". There is other compelling evidence available based upon the recorded history. An excellent place to start would be, "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel, and "More Than A Carpenter" by Josh McDowell. Both are available in paperback for a few dollars each, and would save me the time of transcribing theri copyrighted material to BGP. The best thing about these authors is that they-like you-began their search as devout agnostics seeking to disprove the Gospel and Godhood of Christ. After digging deeply enough, they found otherwise.

 

 

We don't have to go through this again. I've told you that Christianity has been good to me. They have been very kind in offering prayers (something I see as a sign of care in most cases), condolences, and kind wishes. I, however, see the negatives of many religions namely (because its so common in the country that I was born and rasied in) Christianity. I am very much like Ghandi in that in many ways I look up to the figure of Jesus Christ while rejecting the dogmatism in the religion that was founded in his name. Do I believe he was a real man? Yes, I think he probably was. Do I think he was a good man? Yes, he probably was. Do I believe he was the son of God? No, at this point I do not.

 

I am comfortable discussing all issues - I hope that you remain the same.

Not really you don't. Almost all were horribly executed for their beliefs. Why would Peter be crucified upside down instead of refuting the Christ story, if it was a scam. Why would Stephen's last words indicate he was seeing the glory of heaven as he was stoned to death instead of begging for them to stop as he refuted the Christ story? Because he knew the purpose of staying firm in his faith till the very end, no matter what the end actually was.

 

Why would Paul change from killing Christians to leading Christians even in the midst of death threats and prison if the story he was telling was not true? Why would he suffer in prison for a lie?

 

Jesus appeared to thousands. How easy would it have been to prove the story as false when the claim was that he appeared to thousands? Yet it wasn't. But just the opposite occurred. Thousands came to the fold upon the claims. Claims that should have been easy to disprove at that time.

 

Why would Peter, Steven, and others suffer death to protect Christ? I don't know - perhaps the same reason The followers of Jim Jones and the Branch Davidians did. As I have said before - there is a very large number of people who will buy any story if the right person tells it to them.

 

I find it interesting that you ask how easy it would be for some of these thousands that Christ appeared to refute the Gospel claims. Good question. Another good one is - why did none of them confirm it? You say that "thousands came to fold upon the claims." Where exactly do you find that this occured?

Why would Peter, Steven, and others suffer death to protect Christ? I don't know - perhaps the same reason The followers of Jim Jones and the Branch Davidians did. As I have said before - there is a very large number of people who will buy any story if the right person tells it to them.

 

I find it interesting that you ask how easy it would be for some of these thousands that Christ appeared to refute the Gospel claims. Good question. Another good one is - why did none of them confirm it? You say that "thousands came to fold upon the claims." Where exactly do you find that this occured?

 

There is a difference among the followers of Jesus CHrist and the followers of Jim Jones and Branch Davidians. The latter group believed in what they were following was what they BELIEVED TO BE THE TRUTH.

 

The apostles would have been part of the scam and would have been willing to die for something they KNEW TO BE A LIE.

 

Big difference.

 

It is in Acts that the appearances of Jesus post resurrection occurred.

There is a difference among the followers of Jesus CHrist and the followers of Jim Jones and Branch Davidians. The latter group believed in what they were following was what they BELIEVED TO BE THE TRUTH.

 

The apostles would have been part of the scam and would have been willing to die for something they KNEW TO BE A LIE.

 

Big difference.

 

It is in Acts that the appearances of Jesus post resurrection occurred.

 

Was Acts not written by Paul who never even met Jesus personally? That definately sounds like writing based on hearsay if you ask me.

Was Acts not written by Paul who never even met Jesus personally? That definately sounds like writing based on hearsay if you ask me.

 

Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus, I think that was the town.

 

Jesus asked him why he was persecuting his followers.

 

What about the first part of my posts and why would the apostles who would have KNOWN what they were spouting were lies, die horrible deaths, I believe one was skinned, even to their death.

From my friend....

 

ON FAITH:

 

The Bible doesn't ask us to blindly follow God without Him giving us any evidence of His existence. "The heavens declare God's glory," Scripture tells us. I need only to look outside, or look up in the sky to see God's fingerprints. I need only to study the human eyeball to understand that it was designed by a Designer. I need only to look at the complexity of the solar system, of the universe, of plant and animal life to understand that these are not mere happenstances.

 

This is evidence.

 

But can I see God Himelf? Can I use instant replay to view the life of Christ, his death, and his resurrection? No. Of this, FrontRow is right: God can never be 100% proven.

 

But He can be 99% proven. The rest, a miniscule 1% (or something small like that), must come in faith.

Faith is, as others have pointed out, being "sure of what we HOPE for and certain of what we DO NOT see."

 

That verse admits that God cannot be proven with 100% certainty. A small fraction of faith--just the size of a mustard-seed, Jesus said--is all we need. It is not intellectual suicide to believe in God, His Word, His Son, and His plan.

 

Just the opposite, it is the most sane & intellectual decision I have ever made--or ever will make--in my entire life.

Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus, I think that was the town.

 

Jesus asked him why he was persecuting his followers.

 

What about the first part of my posts and why would the apostles who would have KNOWN what they were spouting were lies, die horrible deaths, I believe one was skinned, even to their death.

 

If I remember the verse correctly, Paul "met Christ in the way" or something along those lines. The human - Jesus Christ died It was a vision of Christ that only one Apostle, Barnabus, authenticated. Paul then established himself as the 12th apostle taking the spot of Judas.

 

In fact, Paul admits in his letters that his teachings of Christ were not based off the Apostles but simply from his vision of Christ.

 

Galatians 1:12 "For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

 

 

To respond to your question about why would the apostles do what they did and die horrible deaths in order to protect Christ - I simply do not know. I can't explain why people would die for David Koresh either. I have to think that the kind of people that are capable of having their brain washed into believing that a particular person claiming to be the Messiah is indeed the Messiah is probably not the operating under the same laws mental stability as many of us. Dying to protect their leader is just part of it, I suppose. I can't pretend to understand why they would do it - but 1 out of 12 attempted to get out prior to all this happening...he just commited suicide out of the guilt.