So why does our All Loving and All Knowing God allow genocide, homelessness, suffering, poverty, and oppression to happen?

 

Is his stubborness to never mess with free will worth all that?

 

I do not believe it is His stubborness. I believe he is allowing mankind to take his course and he is saddened when his creation does not respond appropriately, just like I am saddened by my son and daughter when they do not, but I have no desire to control all of their actions even though I created them and love them unconditionally.

 

Why do logical rational humans allow these things to happen?

I do not believe it is His stubborness. I believe he is allowing mankind to take his course and he is saddened when his creation does not respond appropriately, just like I am saddened by my son and daughter when they do not, but I have no desire to control all of their actions even though I created them and love them unconditionally.

 

Why do logical rational humans allow these things to happen?

 

But you see, ace, there is a fundemental difference. Whereas a logical, rational human may allow their child to do something that is not in accord with their own wishes so that they are not controlling - God punishes humans for partaking in the free-will granted to them.

 

God supposedly gives us free-will - a mind to think and to decide for our own but then if we do not think and decide that he exists (or trust and obey him) he condems us to an eternal torment in fire.

I know that you may think differently - but your interpretation of "hell" is vastly different from the vast, vast, vast majority of Christians and theologians.

Don't we punish people for their misuse of freewill every day?

Don't we punish people for their misuse of freewill every day?

 

Yeah we do. But there is a very fundemental difference in the police punishing someone with a parking ticket or a night in jail for breaking a law and God punishing someone for not believing in him.

 

Do you honestly think there is any justification in God's punishment to those who "reject" him?

Yeah we do. But there is a very fundemental difference in the police punishing someone with a parking ticket or a night in jail for breaking a law and God punishing someone for not believing in him.

 

Do you honestly think there is any justification in God's punishment to those who "reject" him?

You're looking at this from the wrong end. Without a place to restrain the wicked, the just would not be able to exist in peace. Hell was not created for humans. It is the eventual prison for satan and his followers. The fact that some humans willingly choose as Milton quoted Satan in Book 1, line 263 of Paradise Lost as he tries to make the best of the situation in hell, explaining "better to reign in hell, than serve in heav'n."

 

What kind of party invites guests at gun point, forces them to participate, never lets them leave and expects them to have a good time? We have a choice. To be truly free and happy, we must have a choice... even if it means that some of us choose poorly.

 

God does not want to push us away. He wants to draw us in. The problem for us is God is holy. He is so holy that our mortal bodies cannot withstand His full presence. He is so holy that our stained spirits would be obliterated in His pure presence.

 

Our fixation on "Laws" and "Punishment" is a direct reflection of our inability to truly understand God's holiness. God established His laws to illustrate what is required for us to be holy. Unfortunately, we are not able to live up to God's level of purity on our own. Neither can God break His own laws and still be God.

 

God has invited us to be a part of His family, His kingdom, His eternal reward. He has provided the way, the wardrobe, the place, the gifts... everything, all we have to do is accept.

 

I really don't understand what could be more loving than that.

You're looking at this from the wrong end. Without a place to restrain the wicked, the just would not be able to exist in peace. Hell was not created for humans. It is the eventual prison for satan and his followers. The fact that some humans willingly choose as Milton quoted Satan in Book 1, line 263 of Paradise Lost as he tries to make the best of the situation in hell, explaining "better to reign in hell, than serve in heav'n."

 

What kind of party invites guests at gun point, forces them to participate, never lets them leave and expects them to have a good time? We have a choice. To be truly free and happy, we must have a choice... even if it means that some of us choose poorly.

 

God does not want to push us away. He wants to draw us in. The problem for us is God is holy. He is so holy that our mortal bodies cannot withstand His full presence. He is so holy that our stained spirits would be obliterated in His pure presence.

 

Our fixation on "Laws" and "Punishment" is a direct reflection of our inability to truly understand God's holiness. God established His laws to illustrate what is required for us to be holy. Unfortunately, we are not able to live up to God's level of purity on our own. Neither can God break His own laws and still be God.

 

God has invited us to be a part of His family, His kingdom, His eternal reward. He has provided the way, the wardrobe, the place, the gifts... everything, all we have to do is accept.

 

I really don't understand what could be more loving than that.

 

You are either in denial or way being over-the-top nieve. How can you say that a God capable of allowing his creations that much torment shows the most love capable? Your comparison to the party is particularly weak. I see what what you're going for but in the end, the question is still the same: Would the throwers of this party wish to burn the guests for an eternity for not following the path laid out for them? Furthermore, did the party throwers throw countless contradictions across their flyers? Oh, and did they say "We expect you to be there - but its kinda up to you to find your way to get here. We're making no further communication. No RSVP Number here!"

You are either in denial or way being over-the-top nieve. How can you say that a God capable of allowing his creations that much torment shows the most love capable? Your comparison to the party is particularly weak. I see what what you're going for but in the end, the question is still the same: Would the throwers of this party wish to burn the guests for an eternity for not following the path laid out for them? Furthermore, did the party throwers throw countless contradictions across their flyers? Oh, and did they say "We expect you to be there - but its kinda up to you to find your way to get here. We're making no further communication. No RSVP Number here!"

I am truly bemused that someone who has openly stated that he has no solid answers because he doesn't really know what to believe has the temerity to call anyone “naïve” for actually believing something... :lol:

 

I hadn't really planned it this way, but in thinking of a response, I realized that Jesus came up with the "weak" (as you claim) party analogy. Therefore, your argument is with Him. I would urge you to actually read the following parable.

 

Matthew 22:1-14 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. "Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.' "But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. "Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

 

If Heaven is simply open to all, regardless of their spiritual condition or willingness to bow to God, why would Jesus tell such a story?

 

As far as no further contact, no RSVPs... the Bible is the best selling book of all time. It is still being published. There are some very good ministers, evangelists and pastors out there doing good work. God speaks to us daily in many ways. The contact is there if you genuinely want it. You start by asking. :thumb:

 

If Heaven is simply open to all, regardless of their spiritual condition or willingness to bow to God, why would Jesus tell such a story?

 

 

FB, I apologize if me stealing and adding to your post is not the best thing to do but thought you statement above leads right to what I thought of today.

 

What about the Prodigal Son story?

 

 

The Parable of the Lost Son

11Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.

13"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

 

17"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20So he got up and went to his father.

"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

 

21"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'

 

22"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. 24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

 

25"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'

 

28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

 

31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "

 

What did the son have to do to get all of this? He had to come back. He had to make the choice to come back.

 

Dad gave him all of his inheritance but he didn't keep sending it to the youngest son while he squandered it away. He had to come back. There was an action required of the son before he garnered the celebration and all the glory of being back home.

 

NOW, at the same time, those of us who are Christians and haven't wandered away, we have to be wary of NOT BEING the older son and being resentful when one returns or comes to the Christian life.

 

We have to be thankful that our brother/sister is alive and found once again.

FB, I apologize if me stealing and adding to your post is not the best thing to do but thought you statement above leads right to what I thought of today.

 

What about the Prodigal Son story?

You can't steal what is given freely Brother... :thumb:

I am truly bemused that someone who has openly stated that he has no solid answers because he doesn't really know what to believe has the temerity to call anyone “naïve” for actually believing something... :lol:

 

I hadn't really planned it this way, but in thinking of a response, I realized that Jesus came up with the "weak" (as you claim) party analogy. Therefore, your argument is with Him. I would urge you to actually read the following parable.

 

Matthew 22:1-14 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. "Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.' "But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. "Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

 

If Heaven is simply open to all, regardless of their spiritual condition or willingness to bow to God, why would Jesus tell such a story?

 

As far as no further contact, no RSVPs... the Bible is the best selling book of all time. It is still being published. There are some very good ministers, evangelists and pastors out there doing good work. God speaks to us daily in many ways. The contact is there if you genuinely want it. You start by asking. :thumb:

 

What a welcoming host that CG is, eh?

 

In response to your question: "If Heaven is simply open to all, regardless of their spiritual condition or willingness to bow to God, why would Jesus tell such a story?"...one possible answer is that He had never been there and had no idea what it was like.

 

The Bible is quite popular...It was also written by humans. Humans that had no direct communication to the God they were discussing. Humans who may have been speaking in extreme hyperbole. Humans that are utterly and completely falliable. Basing an entire religion around the words of humans leaves tons of room for interpretation and tons of room for inaccuracy. Therefore, if those humans that wrote the Bible were incorrect in there writings and descriptions those preachers who was preaching from this book are preaching the same inaccuracies.

What a welcoming host that CG is, eh?

 

In response to your question: "If Heaven is simply open to all, regardless of their spiritual condition or willingness to bow to God, why would Jesus tell such a story?"...one possible answer is that He had never been there and had no idea what it was like.

 

The Bible is quite popular...It was also written by humans. Humans that had no direct communication to the God they were discussing. Humans who may have been speaking in extreme hyperbole. Humans that are utterly and completely falliable. Basing an entire religion around the words of humans leaves tons of room for interpretation and tons of room for inaccuracy. Therefore, if those humans that wrote the Bible were incorrect in there writings and descriptions those preachers who was preaching from this book are preaching the same inaccuracies.

I will concede that humans are fallible, beyond this we simply disagree.

 

It appears to me that you have been deeply hurt by some people you thought you could trust. It would also seem that these people claimed to be righteous Christians. I sincerely hope you're not throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I will concede that humans are fallible, beyond this we simply disagree.

 

 

It seems they are not fallible if they are scientists.:sssh:

Just so I can jump back in . . .

 

There is NO MENTION of an eternal hell for sinners in the Old Testament. Hebrews did not believe in an afterlife

 

Again there is NO MENTION of hell in the old testament - why is that?

 

this hell notion arose in the interbiblical period and became a part of the apocoplyptic literature that arose at the same time.

 

JESUS NEVER MENTIONS HELL with sinners or the outcasts, he mentions hell only with the religious leaders of his day. Why is that?

Just so I can jump back in . . .

 

There is NO MENTION of an eternal hell for sinners in the Old Testament. Hebrews did not believe in an afterlife

 

Again there is NO MENTION of hell in the old testament - why is that?

 

this hell notion arose in the interbiblical period and became a part of the apocoplyptic literature that arose at the same time.

 

JESUS NEVER MENTIONS HELL with sinners or the outcasts, he mentions hell only with the religious leaders of his day. Why is that?

I don't know where you get you information Ace... but you couldn't be further off base.

 

Do you actually read the Bible, or just what certain scholars claim it says?

I will concede that humans are fallible, beyond this we simply disagree.

 

It appears to me that you have been deeply hurt by some people you thought you could trust. It would also seem that these people claimed to be righteous Christians. I sincerely hope you're not throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

Absolutley not. My family are all Christian and most of my friends are Christian if not simply believers in the Christian interpretation of God. I have been treated fairly well by everyone within the faith. However, my eyes are not closed to the injustice and hatefulness that I see the faith extend towards others. I mean when a preacher tells his congregation to not watch Disney cartoons because its so evident that Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse are gay (true story) or to not go to prom because the school is holding it on the night before a Sunday (also a true story) than its getting quite a bit out of hand.

 

Just because Christianity has been kind to me and my family - doesn't mean that I have to condone their views towards others. For example, just because I am white does not mean I have to support the KKK. Please don't conclude that I am attempting to associate Christianity with the KKK - simply drawing a symbolic comparison.

 

I am interested in your saying "I agree that humans are falliable, but beyond that we simply disagree." What exactly do you mean? That humans are falliable but that hopefully they were right when they wrote the Bible?