Just so I can jump back in . . .

 

There is NO MENTION of an eternal hell for sinners in the Old Testament. Hebrews did not believe in an afterlife

 

Again there is NO MENTION of hell in the old testament - why is that?

 

this hell notion arose in the interbiblical period and became a part of the apocoplyptic literature that arose at the same time.

 

JESUS NEVER MENTIONS HELL with sinners or the outcasts, he mentions hell only with the religious leaders of his day. Why is that?

 

Luke 16:22-23, I don't think the rich man was a religious leader.

 

 

Are you insuating that only religious leaders go to hell? Or just that it doesn't exist?

I never said any such thing. I make mistakes all the time. The people around me make mistakes too. I have faith in Jesus Christ. I believe He is without error.

 

I am betting my eternal destiny on the fact that Jesus is indeed who He said He is. If He is not, as you assert, I have still invested my life and actions wisely.

 

Beautiful post, thank you. :thumb:

Here's just a quick stab at your questions. I will be happy to dig deeper when I have more time this evening. I'm sure you'll have your own spin on what these verses are describing, but they're pretty clear to a simpleton like me... :lol:

Your evidence???

 

Show the mention of a literal eternal hell in the old testament. . . you can't.

Psalms 9:16-17 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

 

Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

 

Proverbs 23:13-14 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

 

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

 

Show me where Jesus talks to sinners about hell in the new testament . . . you can't.

Jesus to His disciples...

Matthew 10 :27 "What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

 

Jesus to His disciples...Matthew 13

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

Jesus to the tax collectors and "sinners"… the Pharisees were overhearing…

Luke 16:19-31 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' "'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

 

Jesus to His disciples...

Mark 9:41 I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward. 42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

 

Jesus to His disciples…

Matthew 18:7 "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

 

Peter to all Christians

2 Peter 2:1-6 “But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;”

 

Paul to Christians

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

TFRF, you have made a lot of decisions with your spiritual life based on the sufferings of other people, but from what I have read you have never personally suffered.

I would just say to you that I have personally suffered in ways you can only hope to avoid. It is only through the grace of God, that I am able to function daily. I thank God each day for his presence in my life and for the many Christians who support me.

I have expressed my support and Christian love for you. But I am genuinely concerned for your soul, and yes you have one. You have said you do not discount the existence of God. I would tell you to take these concerns to him. The Christians you are around can help you, and if they can’t you need to find some with more faith.

I'm still praying for you.

TFRF, you have made a lot of decisions with your spiritual life based on the sufferings of other people, but from what I have read you have never personally suffered.

 

Yes, that's a fair assessmment.

 

I would just say to you that I have personally suffered in ways you can only hope to avoid. It is only through the grace of God, that I am able to function daily. I thank God each day for his presence in my life and for the many Christians who support me.

I hate to hear that you have suffered - and if your faith has helped you through that it would be fatuous of me to say that its a bad thing.

 

 

I have expressed my support and Christian love for you. But I am genuinely concerned for your soul, and yes you have one. You have said you do not discount the existence of God. I would tell you to take these concerns to him. The Christians you are around can help you, and if they can’t you need to find some with more faith.

I'm still praying for you.

 

 

As I told you via PM, I will never be insulted to have someones "prayers.", for prayers show geniune concern - and it humbles me to have your concern. You are right in that I do not discount the existence of a God - but as you know, I also do not discount the antithesis.

TFRF, if your looking to the world for the truth then I will just tell you what my Grandpa used to tell me, "There aint no tatters where your digging." Take your questions and concerns to the only real truth.

TFRF, if your looking to the world for the truth then I will just tell you what my Grandpa used to tell me, "There aint no tatters where your digging." Take your questions and concerns to the only real truth.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Nothing like the simple wisdom of our elders... :thumb:

Here's just a quick stab at your questions. I will be happy to dig deeper when I have more time this evening. I'm sure you'll have your own spin on what these verses are describing, but they're pretty clear to a simpleton like me...

Psalms 9:16-17 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

 

Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

 

Proverbs 23:13-14 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

 

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

 

Fastbreak, these verse aren't really translated correctly. The words your translations use for hell are sheol.

 

Sheol was the place of the dead. No real distinction between a heaven and hell. It was where one went when they died. There were some darker places of Sheol but there was no paradise or flames. It was a shadow world.

 

The quote from Isaiah is not about a hell but a judgement that describes destruction that awaited Jerusalem if they did not repent.

I don't know where you get you information Ace... but you couldn't be further off base.

 

Do you actually read the Bible, or just what certain scholars claim it says?

 

I posted the above because I do listen to scholars but I also dig into the Hebraic text and don't settle for just English translations whether they are NIV or KJV.

Was Acts not written by Paul who never even met Jesus personally? That definately sounds like writing based on hearsay if you ask me.

 

Actually Acts was written by Luke (the Gospel Writer). It contains the story of Saul, who became Paul. It also speaks of the way in which the "Good News" broke down barriers for Jews and Gentiles and spread around the Meditarenan (sp?).

Here's just a quick stab at your questions. I will be happy to dig deeper when I have more time this evening. I'm sure you'll have your own spin on what these verses are describing, but they're pretty clear to a simpleton like me... :lol: Psalms 9:16-17 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

 

Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

 

Proverbs 23:13-14 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

 

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

 

I will defer to Hatz on the verses above - Sheol is not hell it is the dark shadowy place

 

Jesus to His disciples...

Matthew 10 :27 "What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

 

To Christians and notice that is says DESTROY the soul - not torment it forever (sounds rather annihilationist to me)

 

Jesus to His disciples...Matthew 13

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

Many feel this fire is a purifying one, leading to redemption, like the ember on Isaiah's (i think) lips.

 

Jesus to the tax collectors and "sinners"… the Pharisees were overhearing…

Luke 16:19-31 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' "'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

 

Either you are intentionally misleading or you simply misread

 

Luke 16:1 says - Jesus told his disciples

Luke 16:14 says - The pharisess who love money . . and he said to them, so this story was told to the pharisees. As I said earlier

 

Jesus to His disciples...

Mark 9:41 I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward. 42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

 

To his disciples - again. Also the description is about the fire not being quenched, not about people burning forever

 

Jesus to His disciples…

Matthew 18:7 "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

 

To his disciples

Peter to all Christians

2 Peter 2:1-6 “But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;”

 

Paul to Christians

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

 

 

DESTRUCTION, again to Christians

Fastbreak, these verse aren't really translated correctly. The words your translations use for hell are sheol.

 

Sheol was the place of the dead. No real distinction between a heaven and hell. It was where one went when they died. There were some darker places of Sheol but there was no paradise or flames. It was a shadow world.

 

The quote from Isaiah is not about a hell but a judgement that describes destruction that awaited Jerusalem if they did not repent.

Hatz, I respect you. I also understand that depending upon the translation, the words the KJV of the Bible identifies as “hell” might be translated as Sheol or Hades representing the place of the dead. If what you’re saying is all there is to it… no Heaven, no hell, no paradise, no place of torment… just a place where dead folks go… do you honestly believe that Solomon is attempting to tell us in Proverbs 23:13-14 that if we discipline our child we can actually deliver him from a physical death? This is entirely illogical.

 

Proverbs 23:13-14 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

 

IMO, Solomon is telling us that appropriate correction here and now can spare our child from a more horrible spiritual punishment. I honestly don’t know how else this verse can be taken.

 

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

 

Isaiah is speaking directly to Israel while alluding prophetically to the fiery place of everlasting torment Jesus Himself would eventually teach us about…

 

Matthew 25:31-46 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

It is difficult to embrace Jesus while denying the reality of Hell He taught us.

 

Revelations 20:10-15 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Ace and others can deny the Bible’s clear teachings on the reality of hell. I would prefer to believe what centuries of Christians before me have understood very clearly. Hell is a real place where none of us truly want to go to. Jesus has provided us a way out of hell and into Heaven. It's up to us to choose.

If you had been born in Saudi Arabia - you would most likely say that Muhammad was the only one who had it right.

 

If you were born in China - you would say that Lao Tzu or Confucious had it right.

 

I guess this goes back to religious peer influence, or what you may call "being blessed" to be born in a predominantly religious populated area of the country.

 

In this argument, you are missing a point. Christianity was not originated in this country. It was originated in the area that Saudi Arabia is. and for the most part, it was rejected.

 

 

It was taken to China and rejected.

 

And then I call your attention to Romans 2 Scripture that I mentioned earlier in another thread that shows that God might have a plan for those that have never heard the Word of Jesus Christ.

 

 

11For God does not show favoritism.

 

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

emphasis mine.

Hatz, I respect you. I also understand that depending upon the translation, the words the KJV of the Bible identifies as “hell” might be translated as Sheol or Hades representing the place of the dead. If what you’re saying is all there is to it… no Heaven, no hell, no paradise, no place of torment… just a place where dead folks go… do you honestly believe that Solomon is attempting to tell us in Proverbs 23:13-14 that if we discipline our child we can actually deliver him from a physical death? This is entirely illogical.

 

Proverbs 23:13-14 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

 

IMO, Solomon is telling us that appropriate correction here and now can spare our child from a more horrible spiritual punishment. I honestly don’t know how else this verse can be taken.

 

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

 

Isaiah is speaking directly to Israel while alluding prophetically to the fiery place of everlasting torment Jesus Himself would eventually teach us about…

 

Matthew 25:31-46 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

It is difficult to embrace Jesus while denying the reality of Hell He taught us.

 

Revelations 20:10-15 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Ace and others can deny the Bible’s clear teachings on the reality of hell. I would prefer to believe what centuries of Christians before me have understood very clearly. Hell is a real place where none of us truly want to go to. Jesus has provided us a way out of hell and into Heaven. It's up to us to choose.

 

 

First let me say I'm not refuting the presence of hell or heaven. I was only pointing out that the concept of eternal punishment is not as developed in the Old Testament as it is in the New Testament.

 

Secondly, I wasn't taking liberties with the sheol vs hell notion. The word is sheol in the Hebrew. That is the language of 99 % of the ancient texts. The reason for the English translation of hell is because the KJV relied very heavily on the Septuigant when they translated the Old Testament. This is the Greek translation of the Old Testament during the inter-testamental period. It was out of their translation that the KJV ascribed the same word, hell, for the OT concept of Sheol and used it interchangably with the Greek New Testament word and concept of Gehennna or "hell".

 

I guess my point is that I'm not the one calling it "Sheol" in your verses you cited. The Scriptures themselves are.

 

It's like the times that the some translations translate "Hades" into "hell" when the two are not synonymous. Both are descriptions of a place to go at death but may carry different meanings.

 

For example: Jesus commended Peter for his confession and told him this was the rock upon which he would build his church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I find an even deeper meaning in that passage by allowing Hades to speak on it's own. IN other words Jesus is saying that Death can not prevail against the church. Death from this life and the death of the saints. In other words, Jesus leaves a powerful lesson for the church of every age that despite losing our greatest saints/Christians - the church will live on.

 

The scriptures hold rich meanings beyond our English if we allow them to speak for themselves.

First let me say I'm not refuting the presence of hell or heaven. I was only pointing out that the concept of eternal punishment is not as developed in the Old Testament as it is in the New Testament.

 

Secondly, I wasn't taking liberties with the sheol vs hell notion. The word is sheol in the Hebrew. That is the language of 99 % of the ancient texts. The reason for the English translation of hell is because the KJV relied very heavily on the Septuigant when they translated the Old Testament. This is the Greek translation of the Old Testament during the inter-testamental period. It was out of their translation that the KJV ascribed the same word, hell, for the OT concept of Sheol and used it interchangably with the Greek New Testament word and concept of Gehennna or "hell".

 

I guess my point is that I'm not the one calling it "Sheol" in your verses you cited. The Scriptures themselves are.

 

It's like the times that the some translations translate "Hades" into "hell" when the two are not synonymous. Both are descriptions of a place to go at death but may carry different meanings.

 

For example: Jesus commended Peter for his confession and told him this was the rock upon which he would build his church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I find an even deeper meaning in that passage by allowing Hades to speak on it's own. IN other words Jesus is saying that Death can not prevail against the church. Death from this life and the death of the saints. In other words, Jesus leaves a powerful lesson for the church of every age that despite losing our greatest saints/Christians - the church will live on.

 

The scriptures hold rich meanings beyond our English if we allow them to speak for themselves.

Excellent insights, and I understand the literal translation of the words in Hebrew and Greek. My point is that even if the concept of an eternal Hell was not fully formed with specific words accurately describing it as a very real place, it is clear that at least David, Solomon and Isaiah had some grasp of it.

 

As far as Ace's contention that orthodox Jews did not believe in an eternal Hell... Jesus was Jewish. He was called Rabbi or teacher of the Law. He was very clear in His teachings of the place, and who would eventually inhabit it. This is not directed at you personally Hatz, but to those who are attempting to redefine the very fundamentals of the Gospels.