Atheisim, Agnosticism, Secularism vs. Religion

[Fastbreak]

I’m starting a new thread to carry on the discussion begun in the “Why Jesus would not vote for Barack Obama” thread. We definitely got off on a tangent, but certainly one I am interested in pursuing.

 

This is not an attempt at war… :lol:

 

I simply find it fascinating that atheists, agnostics, secularists, etc. claim their position is based upon facts and logic, while “the religious” are merely acting upon blind faith. My contention is that it takes as much or more faith to believe in no God as it does to actually believe in God.

All scientific theories that can be tested (though String Theory is extremely difficult to test empirically). I believe in the big bang theory. Quantum Mechanics is a very testable, and accurate description of phenomena such as the Black Hole Phenomena. I see no logical reason to doubt it. Relativity has a lot of factual basis and is backed by the research of one of the most intelligent men to grace the planet.

 

Sadly, there is no test for religion. God gives us no simple formulas or way to test us. The Christian God expects us to worship him through blind faith - and if we choose not to - then he'll burn us for eternity.

 

Love is a psychological emotion. It is something we create within ourselves. It basically only exists within you and around you - and it is what you make it.

You believe in love... that is good. Few deny its existence, in the past or present, but there is no viable empirical proof of its existence or actual substance. We all acknowledge it, but we can't bottle it and say, "Look, here it is. This is love. This is where it comes from and what it is made of."

 

Few deny the existence of a conscience, or of feelings of guilt. Why would these things exist in a purely Darwinian random chance, survival of the fittest scenario? Pondering and lamenting one’s mistakes beyond merely learning a lesson, or learning that fire will burn you and moving on seems counterproductive in the ever spiraling march forward. Why carry guilt or remorse? Yet we all do.

 

Edwin Hubble provided compelling evidence that the universe is expanding. It is commonly believed therefore, that it is expanding from a single common point in space and time. We can muddle around the variations and fine points of the Big Bang but the simple fact is, we have yet to prove it conclusively by empirical means. There are varying theories, but the gist is that “everything that is” appeared miraculously out of “nothing.” How this happened cannot be explained by the established laws of physics. So far, no new advanced theories are able to explain how this could happen without rewriting or undermining the existing laws. Belief in this theory requires faith.

 

We are told there was an incredibly dense mass of “everything that is” incomprehensibly crushed in upon itself in a super massive singularity of time, mass and space no larger than the period at the end of this run-on sentence. For reasons no secular scientist can explain, this super-dense, impossibly crushed gravitational speck suddenly burst into the most violent explosion possible… expanded… cooled… and over time, out of complete chaos, with no designer or intelligent influence emerged the most delicately tuned symphony of an entire structured universe capable of supporting life, ( intelligent or otherwise.) To believe this based upon the proof available requires remarkable faith.

 

One of the biggest problems with a Big Bang is that we are told that Black Holes exist. Black Holes are believed to be the crushed remains of stars and other space stuff that generate such powerful gravitational forces that anything— including light—that falls within their event horizon cannot escape. If the gravity generated by one collapsed star is so great that nothing is able to break free of its crushing forces, how is it remotely possible that the mass of the entire universe—trillions of stars and dark matter—would be able to erupt violently enough to release from the most massive Black Hole imaginable? To believe this with no more proof than is available requires faith of an equally massive scale.

 

I bring up String Theory because it and M-theory predict that space has as many as 10 or 11 dimensions. To be feasible in concept, these added 6 or 7 dimensions require the universe to be measured sub-atomically. We humans perceive only three spatial dimensions and are able to chart our travel through the fourth dimension (time.) We have yet been able to physically observe any dimension beyond the fourth. Modern physicists operate in a realm of faith and theory. Believing in things no one has observed or been able to test empirically. The fact that they may be theoretically possible does nothing to establish them as fact.

 

Whether one views this convincing trail of evidence spiritually or in cold, hard non-religious terms… it all points to a definite beginning. The difference is in how one chooses to interpret the facts. Secular science has gone far enough to establish clear evidence of a “beginning” for the universe, but cannot yet (or IMO ever) provide the logistics for how that beginning could have possibly occurred via natural (non-supernatural) means. It is somewhat ironic therefore, due to the significant lack of empirical proof, that both views require faith… a willingness to believe in things that cannot be clearly proven or explained.

 

The difference is that the atheist/agnostic/secularist chooses to believe, “In the beginning… nothing” whereas a believer such as myself chooses to believe, “In the beginning God.”

 

You are certainly free to believe whatever you choose, but don’t pretend or suggest that the atheist/agnostic/secularist belief is somehow superior because it is based upon more solid evidence… it clearly is not. It requires far more faith to believe that the infinite precision we witness in all of nature arose by random chance than at the hand of a master designer.

[AcesFull]

:thumb: Great post and thread starter, FB. Maybe this one will prevent every other thread from mutating into an atheism v. Christianity thread.

[IM4THEHOUNDS]

I am definitely from the school that believes "In the beginning God . . . " Yes, this requires faith, but IMO a lot less faith than believing we came from nothing. I also believe that it is pretty much futile to try to convince atheists (in particular), and agnostics (to a lesser degree), otherwise. The Holy Spirit is the only one who can change hearts and minds. But, whether they think so or not, these atheists and agnostics also have faith, their faith is in the religion of secular humanism. It takes faith to believe that as well. And, in the end, every knee will bow and confess that Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. I just hope their eyes are opened long before then. God Bless.

[AHSPanther23]

:thumb: Great post and thread starter, FB. Maybe this one will prevent every other thread from mutating into an atheism v. Christianity thread.

 

I doubt it, I hope it doesn't become that.

[TheFrontRowFan]

Question: Are the millions and millions of humans who believe in a God other than CG codemed as well?

[Fastbreak]

Question: Are the millions and millions of humans who believe in a God other than CG codemed as well?

Answer: It would be foolish for me to attempt to answer your question as presented. It is not up to me to determine who gets into Heaven and who doesn't. What I do know is that Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

 

I choose to believe Him.

 

According to His own recorded words, He is the only Door… not Buddha, not Confucius, not Muhammad, not Zeus, nor hundreds of other prophets or gods. Whether He will allow those who denied Him or those who never knew Him in this life the opportunity to acknowledge Him and enter is entirely God's business. All I know is that I know too much to feign ignorance and hope to enter on such a technicality. I am aware and accountable for myself.

[TheFrontRowFan]

Answer: It would be foolish for me to attempt to answer your question as presented. It is not up to me to determine who gets into Heaven and who doesn't. What I do know is that Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

 

I choose to believe Him.

 

According to His own recorded words, He is the only Door… not Buddha, not Confucius, not Muhammad, not Zeus, nor hundreds of other prophets or gods hold the keys. Whether He will allow those who denied Him or those who never knew Him in this life the opportunity to acknowledge Him and enter is entirely God's business. All I know is that I know too much to feign ignorance and hope to enter on such a technicality. I am aware and accountable for myself.

 

 

 

So basically, you're saying you lucked out? You were fortunate enough to be born into a country where belief in the Christian God is common? Humans that were born in China, Burma, Indonesia, and Iran just had poor luck? Humans born into athiestic countries where belief in the Christian God would be deemed illegal just was not born with the same good luck you were?

 

A God that would opperate under such rules, if it existed as described, would not deserve to be worshiped.

[HHSDad]

I don't know what God does with those who have not heard His Word. Maybe He looks at their hearts. It seems those who have heard His word and still reject him, will in turn be rejected by Him.

[TheFrontRowFan]

I don't know what God does with those who have not heard His Word. Maybe He looks at their hearts. It seems those who have heard His word and still reject him, will in turn be rejected by Him.

 

Going back to Ghandi comparison: I don't think there is anyone that could argue that Ghandi was not one of the greatest human beings to grace our Earth. He very well understood Christianity. He looked up to Jesus the person - but rejected the dogmatism he seen within Christianity.

 

Would CG, the all loving good, punish Ghandi to burn in hell for eternity simply for not agreeing with dogmatism of the Christian faith? Again, if so, I have to think that a God like that does not deserve to be worshiped.

[acemona]

Answer: It would be foolish for me to attempt to answer your question as presented. It is not up to me to determine who gets into Heaven and who doesn't. What I do know is that Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

 

I choose to believe Him.

 

According to His own recorded words, He is the only Door… not Buddha, not Confucius, not Muhammad, not Zeus, nor hundreds of other prophets or gods. Whether He will allow those who denied Him or those who never knew Him in this life the opportunity to acknowledge Him and enter is entirely God's business. All I know is that I know too much to feign ignorance and hope to enter on such a technicality. I am aware and accountable for myself.

 

 

What does the bolded mean exactly? Specifically - "through me"

 

Could it not mean that "unless I (Jesus) had come to earth in full obedience to the Father and lived and died, and was resurrected - that no one could be justified? But because I (Jesus) did, ALL can be justified or made righteous."

 

Does it mean that you have to say the "sinners prayer" or could it mean that if you re-orient your life toward what is good and loving that you too can find your way to heaven. Doesn't "repent" mean to turn away from the worldly things and turn toward God - which is good and loving?

[HHSDad]

Going back to Ghandi comparison: I don't think there is anyone that could argue that Ghandi was not one of the greatest human beings to grace our Earth. He very well understood Christianity. He looked up to Jesus the person - but rejected the dogmatism he seen within Christianity.

 

Would CG, the all loving good, punish Ghandi to burn in hell for eternity simply for not agreeing with dogmatism of the Christian faith? Again, if so, I have to think that a God like that does not deserve to be worshiped.

I believe the Bible says that no one is able to follow the entire law, thus be entirely good enough to be acceptable on their own merits.

 

What does the bolded mean exactly? Specifically - "through me"

 

Could it not mean that "unless I (Jesus) had come to earth in full obedience to the Father and lived and died, and was resurrected - that no one could be justified? But because I (Jesus) did, ALL can be justified or made righteous."

 

Does it mean that you have to say the "sinners prayer" or could it mean that if you re-orient your life toward what is good and loving that you too can find your way to heaven. Doesn't "repent" mean to turn away from the worldly things and turn toward God - which is good and loving?

The Mosaic Law required a blood sacrifice to atone for your sins before God. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was a blood sacrifice offered up on behalf of you, me, Fastbreak, TheFrontRowFan, and everyone else. That blood sacrifice cleaned our slates of the long list of sins. It was given freely and must be accepted freely. We are not righteous, but made righteous through His blood. His blood doesn't make me perfect, only forgiven.

[Fastbreak]

So basically, you're saying you lucked out? You were fortunate enough to be born into a country where belief in the Christian God is common? Humans that were born in China, Burma, Indonesia, and Iran just had poor luck? Humans born into athiestic countries where belief in the Christian God would be deemed illegal just was not born with the same good luck you were?

 

A God that would opperate under such rules, if it existed as described, would not deserve to be worshiped.

From this response it is obvious that you already had a reply waiting for the standard answer you were anticipating.

 

This tells me that although you may have hastily read my previous post, you did not truly comprehend what I stated.

 

There's no point in continuing this debate if you are convinced that you already have all the answers and refuse to genuinely contemplate the reasoned points of others.

 

I’ll try again… I never said that humans born into atheistic countries where belief in the Christian God is illegal, or humans who worship other concepts of God, or humans who simply do not have the opportunity to know the true God are automatically condemned… no questions asked, no mercy offered. I said, no one will enter Heaven apart from Jesus. If Jesus is who He says He is, and who I believe He is, everyone will stand face-to-face with Him at some point in (or out of) time. What Jesus chooses to do with each individual is entirely up to Him. I am okay with that. I will not be one of those standing to the side reminding Jesus of their sins or failings. I have enough of my own that need His forgiveness.

 

It would be absurd for me to be jealous that someone who never knew Jesus in their life on earth got in at the last moment, because I genuinely wouldn’t trade my faith and fellowship with Christ just to work in a few more pagan moments apart from Him.

 

As far as me “lucking out” I agree, although I prefer to say that I have been “blessed” to have been born in the greatest nation the world has ever known, at a time of unprecedented technology, knowledge and energy. If anything, I will be more accountable for what I have done with these blessings than a humble pagan existing half naked in a rain forest somewhere. Without God’s grace, I’d be toast.

[Fastbreak]

What does the bolded mean exactly? Specifically - "through me"

 

Could it not mean that "unless I (Jesus) had come to earth in full obedience to the Father and lived and died, and was resurrected - that no one could be justified? But because I (Jesus) did, ALL can be justified or made righteous."

 

Does it mean that you have to say the "sinners prayer" or could it mean that if you re-orient your life toward what is good and loving that you too can find your way to heaven. Doesn't "repent" mean to turn away from the worldly things and turn toward God - which is good and loving?

Ace, your theology baffles me. From what I've read and understood of your beliefs, the fact that Jesus came to earth, was crucified and resurrected basically provides everyone, regardless of their character, contrition or motives a free pass, regardless of whether they accept Jesus Christ or not.

 

I have a hard time believing that heaven will be filled with unrepentant Hitlers, Dahmers and Mansons just because a loving God doesn't wish to see them perish. I do not believe that a truly loving God will force those who don't want to be in His presence and play by His rules to spend eternity in Heaven with the One they despise.

[TheFrontRowFan]

From this response it is obvious that you already had a reply waiting for the standard answer you were anticipating.

 

This tells me that although you may have hastily read my previous post, you did not truly comprehend what I stated.

 

There's no point in continuing this debate if you are convinced that you already have all the answers and refuse to genuinely contemplate the reasoned points of others.

 

I’ll try again… I never said that humans born into atheistic countries where belief in the Christian God is illegal, or humans who worship other concepts of God, or humans who simply do not have the opportunity to know the true God are automatically condemned… no questions asked, no mercy offered. I said, no one will enter Heaven apart from Jesus. If Jesus is who He says He is, and who I believe He is, everyone will stand face-to-face with Him at some point in (or out of) time. What Jesus chooses to do with each individual is entirely up to Him. I am okay with that. I will not be one of those standing to the side reminding Jesus of their sins or failings. I have enough of my own that need His forgiveness.

 

It would be absurd for me to be jealous that someone who never knew Jesus in their life on earth got in at the last moment, because I genuinely wouldn’t trade my faith and fellowship with Christ just to work in a few more pagan moments apart from Him.

 

As far as me “lucking out” I agree, although I prefer to say that I have been “blessed” to have been born in the greatest nation the world has ever known, at a time of unprecedented technology, knowledge and energy. If anything, I will be more accountable for what I have done with these blessings than a humble pagan existing half naked in a rain forest somewhere. Without God’s grace, I’d be toast.

 

I don't know how I can respond to this without saying something offensive. I will just say that I absolutely disagree with you. 100%. I think your idea of God and the way it operates is quite scary, to say the least. For whatever reason, you can worship a God capable of allowings its creations to be tortured. I, in no way, believe such a God exists, and if it did - out of respect to myself and humankind - I could not worship such a God.

 

I don't think I will ever get any common sense answer from you of why you believe such things. If not, then there is no point for you and I to continue debating such things.

[Fastbreak]

I don't think I will ever get any common sense answer from you of why you believe such things. If not, then there is no point for you and I to continue debating such things.

Based upon your apparent definition of "common sense" I agree.

 

I genuinely wish you well. :thumb: