Drawing from multiple counties

[HHSDad]

A common accusation against the private schools is that they draw from multiple counties and outside 'the community'. I am not sure how to defined the later bu the former is easily defined and can be compared to other states.

 

Kentucky has 120 counties. Only 3 states have more counties. Texas (254), Georgia (159) and Virginia (134). The need for such a great number of counties should be related to population or to just the physical size of the state.

 

When compared to the 11 states with the most counties, of which 6 are Kentucky neighbors, Kentucky has the smallest average county size at 337 sq miles. Virgina is a close second at an average of 356 sq miles. However, Tennessee's counties average 444 square miles and Ohio's counties average 509 sq miles each.

 

In terms of popluation Kentucky (34,107 people per county) ranks second out of the top 11 states in number of counties. Kansas (25,866 people per county) ranks first but the counties in Kanas average 784 square miles, over twice the size the average Kentucky county. Missouri (49,327 ppc) comes in 3rd but they average almost 40% more people per county than Kentucky. Tennessee (61,024 ppc) averages almost twice the number of people per county than Kentucky and Ohio (129,013 ppc) averages over 3 times the number of people per county.

BTW, Virginia (54,429 ppc) with their higher overall population has far more people per county even though they have more counties.

 

The conclusion is that Kentucky has very small counties in physical size and the counties are not densely populated. So when private schools draw from multiple counties it should not be a surprise and should not be considered a issue. At the same time this same phenomena probably keeps many of the public schools from drawing the numbers needed for higher quality football.

 

Counties	State	Population	Area	PPC	APC
254	Texas	23,507,783	268,581	92,550	1,057
159	Georgia	9,363,941	59,425	58,893	374
134	Virginia	7,642,884	42,774	57,036	319
120	Kentucky	4,206,074	40,409	35,051	337
115	Missouri	5,842,713	69,704	50,806	606
105	Kansas	2,764,075	82,277	26,325	784
102	Illinois	12,831,970	57,914	125,804	568
100	N. Carolina	8,856,505	53,819	88,565	538
99	Iowa	2,982,085	56,272	30,122	568
95	Tennessee	6,038,803	42,143	63,566	444
93	Nebraska	1,768,331	110,561	19,014	1,189
92	Ohio	11,478,006	116,096	124,761	1,262
88	Indiana	6,313,520	94,321	71,745	1,072

[westsider]

Having the option and it being a realistic option is too quite different things.

I disagree. Every public school (urban or rural, county system or independent) can allow students from other systems to attend. Whether they have the wherewithal to attract them is another question entirely.

[thsrocks]

I disagree. Every public school (urban or rural, county system or independent) can allow students from other systems to attend. Whether they have the wherewithal to attract them is another question entirely.

 

BINGO!!!!!!

 

At last, someone who understands.......:thumb:

[westsider]

BINGO!!!!!!

 

At last, someone who understands.......:thumb:

It's been a while since I've heard that from a Trinity supporter ... :lol:

[EKUAlum05]

You can talk about consolidation all you want, but one common issue remains, and will continue to remain, that will keep consolidation from occuring in Eastern Kentucky.

 

Roads.

 

Prime example, Phelps in Pike County. Three times, there have been consolidations in Pike County (states largest county in land size): Mullins/Johns Creek- Pike Central (mid to late 90's), Virgie/Dorton- Shelby Valley (early 90's), Feds Creek/Millard/Elkhorn City- East Ridge (early 2000's)... the other remaining schools are 1A Pikeville Independent (independent, no consolidation there), 3A Belfry, and 1A Phelps.... geogrpahically speaking if you drew a straight line from Belfry to Phelps it would be around 10 miles... but the roads in the area do not support makign the trek unless you either wanna cross a one lane mountain with no guard rails or backtrack into Matewan, WV before eventually getting to Phelps 25 minutes later.

 

As a result Phelps has gotten a raw deal in essence... their facilities are the least modern, it's ahrder to build their sports programs with scheduling difficulites and travel schematics, and their fan base is much smaller. But, would it be economically feasible for the Pike County Board to continue to be a charity case for tiny Phelps when all the other county schools are 4-5 times the size and make up nearly 90% of the students in the county?

 

 

What makes this point drive home even more is the fact that Pike County is porbably one of the more prosperous counties not only in EKY, but the entire state. Imagine the difficulties in Counties who doesn't have the economic benefits that pike County does, but still ahev similar situations with schools being isolated by poor roads.

[westsider]

Very good points.

 

A friend of mine lives in Harlan and has always supported the idea of the three county schools consolidating. At the time, I asked him why Evarts and Cumberland couldn't merge, making it roughly the same size as Cawood, because they both were so far to the east.

 

He explained to me that to get connect Evarts and Cumberland, you would have to dig a hole through a big mountain. Therefore, it's more feasible to bus the kids to Harlan and consolidate all three schools into one.

 

The moral of the story ... geography play a huge role in eastern Kentucky schools, just as EKUAlum05 eloquently points out.

[EKUAlum05]

Very good points.

 

A friend of mine lives in Harlan and has always supported the idea of the three county schools consolidating. At the time, I asked him why Evarts and Cumberland couldn't merge, making it roughly the same size as Cawood, because they both were so far to the east.

 

He explained to me that to get connect Evarts and Cumberland, you would have to dig a hole through a big mountain. Therefore, it's more feasible to bus the kids to Harlan and consolidate all three schools into one.

 

The moral of the story ... geography play a huge role in eastern Kentucky schools, just as EKUAlum05 eloquently points out.

HAHA I think that's the first time you have agreed with me on a debatable topic... feels nice and raises my self confidence. Thanks westsider.... :lol:

[acemona]

If you do not have reciprocal agreements with surrounding counties/schools you recieve no ADA/SEEK money from the state and you begin educating these students for free. It costs about 7500 to begin to educate a student 9000 is a much better amount to do it well.. No school is going to charge that in tuition, so after a few students, used to enrich the curriculum, taking on additional students become a situation of diminishing returns.

 

If you DO have reciprocal agreements they can be dissolved if the sending schools believes you are recruiting. It is a good check on the process.

 

Don't let someone kid you into believing that schools can simply take whomever they want with regards to all of the other impacts.

[westsider]

HAHA I think that's the first time you have agreed with me on a debatable topic... feels nice and raises my self confidence. Thanks westsider.... :lol:

Surely it's not the first time ... nor the last.

[ladiesbballcoach]

I'm curious to know why you don't think the rural schools have that option?

 

If I recall properly, a lot of the supporters of the public private split got all incensed about girls from Franfort travelling to attend Lex Cath and play basketball there ("we have to have territory limits" they cried.). If Lex Cath's girls basketball program can be so attractive to have parents/students drive from Frankfort to Lexington each and every day, why can't the rural schools have athletic and academic programs that are so attractive to have parents/students drive a county or two to attend? Why can't Pendleton County's girl's basketball become so good, so as to be able to attract student athletes from southern Campbell County, or northern Harrison County?

How many people are in the 3 county area of Boone, Kenton, Campbell versus the 3 county area of Pendleton, Harrison, Bracken County?

 

How are the roads in making those trips in the NKY area or Lex area versus the Eastern KY area? A 30-mile trip from Frankfort to LexCath is MUCH different than making a 30-mile trip in EKY.

 

Don't forget, at least to me, one of the MAJOR pulls to a private school is the religious affliation. I have given SERIOUS consideration to putting my kids into Calvary Christian. Even to the degree, I researched job opportunities at Calvary Christian for me. The ONLY reason was the Christian education that my kids would have received, my wife and I felt would ENHANCE (NOT REPLACE) the Christian education we are trying to impart to them via our lives and our church.

 

Publics don't have that.

 

If I took my children to Highlands, it would be totally an athletic reason. As in my personal opinion, they teach the same subjects as my child's present schools and academically, MY WIFE AND I are the ones to determine how good of an education they are receiving by the standards that we are requiring of them.

[ladiesbballcoach]

:dancingpa

 

I've asked that question numerous times myself.

 

There is something that makes some schools (public and private) attractive enough that parents are willing to pay tuition and provide transportation. It certainly seems like other schools would want to emulate that success rather then discourage it.

Separation of church and state denies the public schools the chance to emulate the #1 thing that Christian-based private schools have going for them, IMO.

[ladiesbballcoach]

I disagree. Every public school (urban or rural, county system or independent) can allow students from other systems to attend. Whether they have the wherewithal to attract them is another question entirely.

I said basically every school has the option but it is not an option that is realistic in meriting new students.

 

You said every school has the option but it is another questioin whether they can attract new students.

 

Where did you disagree with me?

[RockPride]

A common accusation against the private schools is that they draw from multiple counties and outside 'the community'. I am not sure how to defined the later bu the former is easily defined and can be compared to other states.

 

Kentucky has 120 counties. Only 3 states have more counties. Texas (254), Georgia (159) and Virginia (134). The need for such a great number of counties should be related to population or to just the physical size of the state.

 

When compared to the 11 states with the most counties, of which 6 are Kentucky neighbors, Kentucky has the smallest average county size at 337 sq miles. Virgina is a close second at an average of 356 sq miles. However, Tennessee's counties average 444 square miles and Ohio's counties average 509 sq miles each.

 

In terms of popluation Kentucky (34,107 people per county) ranks second out of the top 11 states in number of counties. Kansas (25,866 people per county) ranks first but the counties in Kanas average 784 square miles, over twice the size the average Kentucky county. Missouri (49,327 ppc) comes in 3rd but they average almost 40% more people per county than Kentucky. Tennessee (61,024 ppc) averages almost twice the number of people per county than Kentucky and Ohio (129,013 ppc) averages over 3 times the number of people per county.

BTW, Virginia (54,429 ppc) with their higher overall population has far more people per county even though they have more counties.

 

The conclusion is that Kentucky has very small counties in physical size and the counties are not densely populated. So when private schools draw from multiple counties it should not be a surprise and should not be considered a issue. At the same time this same phenomena probably keeps many of the public schools from drawing the numbers needed for higher quality football.

This is an excellent post, very informative and dead on accurate.

[leatherneck]

How many people are in the 3 county area of Boone, Kenton, Campbell versus the 3 county area of Pendleton, Harrison, Bracken County?

 

How are the roads in making those trips in the NKY area or Lex area versus the Eastern KY area? A 30-mile trip from Frankfort to LexCath is MUCH different than making a 30-mile trip in EKY.

 

Don't forget, at least to me, one of the MAJOR pulls to a private school is the religious affliation. I have given SERIOUS consideration to putting my kids into Calvary Christian. Even to the degree, I researched job opportunities at Calvary Christian for me. The ONLY reason was the Christian education that my kids would have received, my wife and I felt would ENHANCE (NOT REPLACE) the Christian education we are trying to impart to them via our lives and our church.

 

Publics don't have that.

 

If I took my children to Highlands, it would be totally an athletic reason. As in my personal opinion, they teach the same subjects as my child's present schools and academically, MY WIFE AND I are the ones to determine how good of an education they are receiving by the standards that we are requiring of them.

 

 

The road issue is a fair one to raise for eastern Ky schools I suppose. But not sure its legit when we start talking about public schools in Lexington, Louisville and for that matter Pendleton County. And while the good road system makes it easier for kids in other districts to make it to your school, it likewise makes it easier for kids in your district to attend other schools, so its a two way street (pardon the pun).

 

And its not like Highlands hasn't lost students to other schools, we have. It happens and you respond to the reasons why students are leaving. Thus, you have to have excellent academic and athletic programs or risk losing the kids in your district to other schools. In other words, you have to compete because its so easy to lose students to other schools because its so easy and convenient for them (due to the better road system that you mentioned) to attend other schools in the 3 county area. All the competition in northern Kentucky between schools has made them (or some of them) better. The very reason that you claim makes attracting students from other school districts not be a realistic option, also means that its not realistic that your kids will leave your school district regardless of how poor your academic and athletic programs may be. As a result, there is not that natural "improve or go out of business" mentality forcing schools to compete and improve, which makes it easy for administrators to become complacent.

 

And in my opinion, administrators in a lot of rural public schools have been very complacent for decades in academics and athletics(except in boys basketball of course...which is why those schools have been much more than competitive in that sport over the years; recent and distant). Because kids and parents did not have any real alternative, they were forced to attend their home district high school What the public schools are now realizing is that kids and parents are now willing to do those long drives to adjacent school districts for the athletic and academic programs. Some are responding to the challenge; unfortunately some are not. Those that are not want, in my opinion, to create strict boundaries through measures like Proposal 2 so they don't have to compete, kids and parents will not have easy alternatives and the schools can remain complacent.

 

You can't be complacent in northern Kentucky or you'll lose students to nearby districts in a heart beat, right or wrong. Private schools throughout the state cannot be complacent, because if they are no better than the public alternatives, who in their right minds would pay tuition to go to a private school? Sure religion is a factor with some people, but is not a factor with others who have their kids attend private schools.

 

 

And if you are going to raise the greater population issue in re the three northern Kentucky counties, you also have to be fair and acknowledge the number of high schools in that three county area. Many more choices for kids and parents to consider, which means many more opportunities to dilute the talent pool amongst all the schools in northern Kentucky. There only becomes a funnel to one school when the other schools are not doing their job. With alternatives to Highlands like Beechwood, CovCath, NewCath, Dixie, Ryle and seemingly Campbell County, there is no funnel of athletes to Highlands. No doubt that for a couple of years, there was some level of discontent at CovCath with Coach Ray (not opining if was justified) and a couple of players left CovCath. What did CovCath do? They got a new very good head coach and in two years, he won a state championship, which explains why you don't see CovCath players leaving to attend Highlands any more. And I compliment CovCath for that by the way. They responded to the competition and in my opinion improved their football program.

[Dlbdonn]

Very good points.

 

A friend of mine lives in Harlan and has always supported the idea of the three county schools consolidating. At the time, I asked him why Evarts and Cumberland couldn't merge, making it roughly the same size as Cawood, because they both were so far to the east.

 

He explained to me that to get connect Evarts and Cumberland, you would have to dig a hole through a big mountain. Therefore, it's more feasible to bus the kids to Harlan and consolidate all three schools into one.

 

The moral of the story ... geography play a huge role in eastern Kentucky schools, just as EKUAlum05 eloquently points out.

Geography won't be an issue for eastern Kentucky schools much longer if mountaintop removal mining continues unabated . Soon Eastern Kentucky will look like Kansas . Flat .