Astros Manager and GM Suspended for 2020 Season

[rjs4470]

1993 attendance was an outlier, abnormally high. Look at 1992 and prior and the per game numbers are similar to 1997-2003. Dig deeper. Don't buy the tired and lazy media spin. The truth is in the facts.

 

What about 1995-1996, the period before things started coming back when attendance was in the tank? What brought back the fans starting in 97? It didn't just happen "naturally" (pardon the pun).

[rjs4470]

Moving back to be more focused on the actual thread subject and the cheating scandal. The players are doing it again. We don't really know the whole truth on what the Astros did or did not do because the Astros players are "protecting" each other. Even though innocent players are tainted by this cheating scandal they still won't tell the whole truth. That is where I see a lot of similarities to the steroids situation. The players are lying for each other and they are in large part to blame for the whole cheating fiasco. Meanwhile Manfred and MLB are taking all the hits.

 

MLB is a tight knit group, and the players will always protect each other whether it's roids or sign stealing Sign stealing has been going on forever, and I'm not sure that this scandal will ultimately be all that damaging to the sport. Let's not forget pitchers doctoring balls, or player hitting with corked bats. Teams and players will always look for an edge, and I'm kind of surprised this particular scandal has blown up as much as it has, considering "cheating" scandals seem to pop up in baseball on a fairly regular basis.

[Voice of Reason]

MLB is a tight knit group, and the players will always protect each other whether it's roids or sign stealing Sign stealing has been going on forever, and I'm not sure that this scandal will ultimately be all that damaging to the sport. Let's not forget pitchers doctoring balls, or player hitting with corked bats. Teams and players will always look for an edge, and I'm kind of surprised this particular scandal has blown up as much as it has, considering "cheating" scandals seem to pop up in baseball on a fairly regular basis.

 

I agree with all this. Especially the way this scandal has blown up. I think the uproar is more about information and today's media than the scandal itself.

[Voice of Reason]

Look deeper, look at the numbers at St. Louis, Chicago and San Francisco for the decade prior to the power surge. SF for example was drawing in the 20's the entire decade, Bonds blows up and attendance jumps into the 40k+ range. Cubs were getting 26-27K the three years after the strike, Sosa goes off and attendance jumps to 33K and grows to 40K+ over the next 5 seasons. St.Louis shows similar growth. The Reds who were steroidless had near zero attendance growth. The teams with the "Juice" drew the crowds. The HR races captured the attention of fans that had lost interest over the strike. Baseball popularity can't be measured soley by butts in seats, as the majority of MLB fans live more than an hours drive from their favorite team.

 

Good stuff JD.

[Voice of Reason]

And now we come full circle. David Ortiz comments about the scandal and who does he blast? Mike Fiers for letting people know the cheating was happening. It is all about the players.

 

If the players complaining are really and truly upset and want the cheating exposed, penalized and stopped, then the players and the players union have to take the action to make it happen, not Manfred and MLB.

[TheDeuce]

And now we come full circle. David Ortiz comments about the scandal and who does he blast? Mike Fiers for letting people know the cheating was happening. It is all about the players.

 

If the players complaining are really and truly upset and want the cheating exposed, penalized and stopped, then the players and the players union have to take the action to make it happen, not Manfred and MLB.

 

Can the players union take away a World Series?

[nkypete]

Can the players union take away a World Series?

 

 

^ Probably all that will happen

[CincySportsFan]

And now we come full circle. David Ortiz comments about the scandal and who does he blast? Mike Fiers for letting people know the cheating was happening. It is all about the players.

 

If the players complaining are really and truly upset and want the cheating exposed, penalized and stopped, then the players and the players union have to take the action to make it happen, not Manfred and MLB.

 

Manfred screwed up when he basically gave everyone immunity for testimony. The union is damn sure not going to give that up. There's no way to go after the players, individually, now.

 

The only thing he can do, in my opinion, is to vacate the championship. Take the Astros' "reward" away for their "risky" actions. Right now, as it is, there's really no reason why not to continue cheating...just be better at not getting caught. The ends justify the means, right? But, if you take away the trophy...a lot fewer teams (if any) are going to even think about trying something like this in the future, if they know what the punishment could be.

 

Oh, and as for Ortiz...his words would carry more weight, if it wasn't for his beloved Sox being next on the potential chopping block.

[Voice of Reason]

Can the players union take away a World Series?

 

I am curious about what the commissioner can do. I guess he could use the best interests of baseball clause and do what he thinks needs to be done, including declaring the Dodgers 2017 World Champions. Could he force the Astros players to give back their rings?

 

Side note: The Astros won two games in LA in that series and lost one at home. Interesting info to consider when trying to determine the impact of the cheating and whether the cheating is why the Astros won.

[Voice of Reason]

Look deeper, look at the numbers at St. Louis, Chicago and San Francisco for the decade prior to the power surge. SF for example was drawing in the 20's the entire decade, Bonds blows up and attendance jumps into the 40k+ range. Cubs were getting 26-27K the three years after the strike, Sosa goes off and attendance jumps to 33K and grows to 40K+ over the next 5 seasons. St.Louis shows similar growth. The Reds who were steroidless had near zero attendance growth. The teams with the "Juice" drew the crowds. The HR races captured the attention of fans that had lost interest over the strike. Baseball popularity can't be measured soley by butts in seats, as the majority of MLB fans live more than an hours drive from their favorite team.

 

Good stuff JD.

 

JD ... I will do a deeper dive on your numbers later, but a quick review does not show the numbers matching up with your post. For example, from 1998 to 1999, Cincinnati posted the 4th best attendance growth. The Cubs were #8, Giants #9 and Cardinals #13. From 1999-2000, Giants #1 (winning does that), Reds #3 (winning), Cardinals #12 and the Cubs lost attendance (right in the middle of Sosa-roid mania, but guess what ... they were losing a lot of games).

[Jumper_Dad]

JD ... I will do a deeper dive on your numbers later, but a quick review does not show the numbers matching up with your post. For example, from 1998 to 1999, Cincinnati posted the 4th best attendance growth. The Cubs were #8, Giants #9 and Cardinals #13. From 1999-2000, Giants #1 (winning does that), Reds #3 (winning), Cardinals #12 and the Cubs lost attendance (right in the middle of Sosa-roid mania, but guess what ... they were losing a lot of games).

You can't compare them to where they are compared to others, to get a real read you have to compare them to them selves pre-strike, post-strike and during HR binge.

 

1994 Cubs 32,659

1994-95 Baseball Strike

95 Cubs 26,643 Sosa HR 36

96 Cubs 27,228 Sosa HR 40

97 Cubs 27,041 Sosa HR 36

98 Cubs 32,186 Sosa HR 66

99 Cubs 34,739 Sosa HR 63

00 Cubs 34,438 Sosa HR 50

01 Cubs 35,196 Sosa HR 64

02 Cubs 33,248 Sosa HR 49

03 Cubs 37,032 Sosa HR 40

One real decrease during Sosa Mania 2002, 1999 and 2000 basically flat with a 300 person decrease.

 

94 StL 32,746

94/95 Strike

95 StL 24,570

96 StL 32,774

97 Stl 32,519 McGwire 24 (58 total, traded mid season)

98 StL 39,453 McGwire 70

99 StL 40,197 McGwire 65

00 StL 41,191 McGwire 32 (Missed 1/2 season)

01 StL 38,390 McGwire 29 (Missed 60+ games and retired)

02 StL 37,182

 

Reds

94 33,003 1st Place

94/95 Strike

95 25,523 1st Place

96 22,981 3rd

97 22,047 3rd

98 22,144 4th

99 25,292 2nd

00 31,624 2nd The Kid Returns Home

01 23,794 5th

02 22,913 3rd

03 29,077 5th GABC opens

 

In 1995 the year after the strike all three had comparable attendance. McGwire and Sosa made a huge difference in the years to come.

[CincySportsFan]

Finally, someone pushing back at Ortiz and Martinez.

 

Mark Teixeira Calls Mike Fiers a Hero and Says Clean Players Want Cheaters Exposed

 

"This isn't Goodfellas. This is the real world."@teixeiramark25 is not a fan of players calling Mike Fiers a "snitch."

 

I've got to agree. When Pedro first came out about it, and then even Jessica Mendoza (who was a special adviser to the Mets...where Carlos Beltran was to be their manager)...it came across as sour grapes. They have an ulterior motive in trying to shift the focus away from the actual cheating, which is why they moved their target to Fiers. Who in their right mind wouldn't want cheaters exposed?

[Voice of Reason]

Finally, someone pushing back at Ortiz and Martinez.

 

Mark Teixeira Calls Mike Fiers a Hero and Says Clean Players Want Cheaters Exposed

 

"This isn't Goodfellas. This is the real world."@teixeiramark25 is not a fan of players calling Mike Fiers a "snitch."

 

I've got to agree. When Pedro first came out about it, and then even Jessica Mendoza (who was a special adviser to the Mets...where Carlos Beltran was to be their manager)...it came across as sour grapes. They have an ulterior motive in trying to shift the focus away from the actual cheating, which is why they moved their target to Fiers. Who in their right mind wouldn't want cheaters exposed?

 

Other cheaters.

[The Professor]

Was it really damaging? It basically saved baseball after the strike of 1994 by making it more exciting. If players weren't bashing those home runs, and players not putting up big numbers, who knows where baseball might be today. Yes steroids were very damaging to the legacies of the players involved. But I don't think the sport itself suffered...if anything it benefited in a time where they needed the help.

 

It didn’t save baseball for me after the 1994 strike and the World Series cancellation. I rarely watch MLB anymore with the exception of a few of the post season games. But before the strike I was a baseball junky. Followed the Reds intensely and watch other teams as well. I had a group of friends that were as big a baseball nut as me and we would travel from southeast Kentucky to Cincinnati for at least 8 games a year, some years more.

However, the strike of ‘94 did it for me and several of my buddies. I don’t watch MLB during the season anymore.

[Carl Spackler]

Finally, someone pushing back at Ortiz and Martinez.

 

Mark Teixeira Calls Mike Fiers a Hero and Says Clean Players Want Cheaters Exposed

 

"This isn't Goodfellas. This is the real world."@teixeiramark25 is not a fan of players calling Mike Fiers a "snitch."

 

I've got to agree. When Pedro first came out about it, and then even Jessica Mendoza (who was a special adviser to the Mets...where Carlos Beltran was to be their manager)...it came across as sour grapes. They have an ulterior motive in trying to shift the focus away from the actual cheating, which is why they moved their target to Fiers. Who in their right mind wouldn't want cheaters exposed?

 

Other cheaters.

 

Wasn't Ortiz more upset that Fiers waited until he wasn't getting the benefit of the cheating to expose it?