Isaiah or AI?

[JokersWild24]

This one is really intriguing and just tough to answer.

 

There are a few ways you can look at it, but breaking it down, here's what I came up with: If you need a player to put the team on his back and carry them, or at least be a focal point of your offense, then you want Iverson. If you need a player to play blend in with other stars, a point guard who'll pick and choose their spots, a player who can be content with occasionally taking a backseat to others and maybe not getting his share of the public spotlight, then you want Isiah.

If we’re going to liken each to current professionals, I’d say that Isiah is more in the mold of a Chris Paul or Rajon Rondo (a true floor general who’ll lead any team and stuff the stat sheet), while Iverson is more of a hybrid between John Wall and James Harden (from this season) in that his assist-to-turnover ratio is just downright bad for a guard (Harden) and he doesn’t have a consistent stroke (Wall), but uses he uses his quickness and athleticism to find ways penetrate and score in bunches.

 

 

 

 

The case for Allen Iverson:

 

If I have the #1 overall pick in the draft for an expansion franchise and I have to get off the ground, I'd go with Iverson.

 

 

Here are the reasons why:

 

1. He showed national pride in his dealings with Team USA at a time when our country was coming off some atrocious performances (2000-2002) and there weren’t many other stars who were spending their summers playing in international competition.

 

2. He is a former league MVP, and two time scoring champion & brought it in big games.

 

3. Defense and Versatility

 

 

 

First and foremost, I'll always remember and respect Iverson for being one of the very few NBA "stars", who along with Tim Duncan, who stepped up and even WANTED to play for Team USA during the 2004 Olympics (and looking at the article, he was even wanting to play in 2000).

 

Before Team USA had even advanced that far, they had to qualify in the 2003 FIBA games, and AI’s stats during those games (with a more stacked team, before they lost guys like Ray Allen and Jason Kidd to injuries) were as good as any point guard’s. That team ran through the FIBA field like a buzzsaw in finishing 10-0. To me, this showed that Iverson could blend with talent.

 

The eventual 2004 team got a bronze, and looking back at the roster, LeBron James and Dwayne Wade are the flashy names, but they weren't very deep into their NBA careers at this time (drafted in 2003). Here's a breakdown of the 2004 roster:

 

Allen Iverson

Stephon Marbury

Dwyane Wade

Carlos Boozer

Carmelo Anthony

LeBron James

Emeka Okafor

Shawn Marion

Amar'e Stoudemire

Tim Duncan

Lamar Odom

Richard Jefferson

 

As you can see from that roster, it really isn't a Murderer's Row, and Iverson was one of the few bright spots on that team. Remember, Iverson was the NBA's Most Valuable Player in the 2000-2001 season, and he committed to the national squad after some rough years in 2000/2002, even though he'd been passed up before and many other players (such as Shaq, Garnett, Kobe, etc.).

 

 

Secondly, Iverson could create his own shot and scoring opportunities. He carried a team to the 2000-2001 NBA Finals, getting the MVP award along the way, in an effort that I just don’t think Isiah could have replicated. His performance in Game 1 of the NBA Finals against the LA Lakers that season was one of the best individual performances that I can recall at any level.

 

AI also won the scoring title in four different seasons: 98-99 (lockout shortened), 00-01, 01-02, and 04-05.

 

While AI might force more shots than Isiah, I don’t think we can be fair to him without mentioning that he probably forced lots of these because he HAD to force them. He’s small and had to play somewhat out of control to be effective in the ways his teams needed him to be. He also rarely had anyone memorable to dish to.

 

Maybe most impressive is the fact that AI has the 2nd highest PPG average in the playoffs. #1 on that list is Michael Jordan.

 

 

Third and finally, I think that AI is a little more versatile than Zeke in the fact that he was quicker, a (slightly) better on ball defender, and more apt to be able to play off the ball with success. While that sounds weird for someone like Iverson who dominated the ball for much of his career, I do think he has more value-added for a team in playing off the ball while making his defender chase him while he darted around screeners and looked for his shot.

 

 

 

 

 

The case for Isiah Thomas:

 

If I’m looking for a true point guard, as in the guy to pair with my star(s) and take the franchise to the promised land, it’s hard to argue with Zeke. Looking at his career, you see a guy with some amazing statistical seasons, but at the same time seemed to have no qualms about fading into the background in discussions like this so long as he won. Iverson had a problem coming off the bench for teams, but you’d have a tougher time seeing Thomas act like that and/or put his coaches through the same. In any event, I think there’s a reason we compare the two and 9 out of 10 will take Isiah if we’re talking about a “quintessential point”.

 

 

Here are the reasons why:

 

1. His record speaks for itself, as he won NCAA & NBA titles.

 

2. Isiah’s assist-to-turnover ratio nearly doubles AI’s.

 

3. The Jordan lore and his icy relationship with His Airness may skew some fans’ view of Zeke’s total body of work.

 

 

 

First, and as much as I dislike Bobby Knight and Indiana, Isiah led them to a National Title in 81, was the second pick in the draft, and won an NBA Championship in the 88-89 and 89-90 seasons as a member of the Bad Boy Pistons.

 

While Isiah doesn’t have AI’s scoring prowess or outside touch, he averaged a healthy 18+ PPG during his championship seasons. Adding ~3.5 rebounds and ~8.5 assists per game during those championship stretches shows he was a more well-rounded floor general than his counterpart.

 

 

Second, and just as important for evaluating the players head-to-head, is the fact that Isiah’s assist-to-turnover ratio, when put head to head with AI, leaves little room for argument. Iverson’s best year (07-08 in Denver... and it isn’t really close) is 2.366, while Thomas’ best is 3.75 (84-85) and few of his seasons are below Iverson’s max. While this could be a product of who they played with, Isiah also averaged 21.2 PPG in the same 84-85 season where he had his best ratio.

 

Iverson:

Allen Iverson Stats - ESPN

Thomas:

Isiah Thomas Stats - ESPN

 

Third and finally, does our generation diminish Isiah’s accomplishments because of recency and the fact that rumored spats with Jordan are the reason that he was excluded from Dream Team and was “frozen out” during an All-Star game?

 

I do think this is a valid point, especially when looking through Isiah’s career stats and seeing some of the numbers that he put up.

 

Despite the fact that he was in a more ideal situation than Iverson, there aren’t many guys who’ve won a championship in college and the pros, especially when the criteria is narrowed so that they contributed a as a vital part of each respective unit.

 

Ironically, I think that Iverson could have served the role of a “Bad Boy Piston” quite admirably, we’ll never know if his never playing on a “good” or “great” team was his own doing or the result of a bad draw.

[BigVMan23]

Only one flaw in your reasoning Joker. You first surmise that there is a case to take AI over Isaiah. False premise, there isn't one, so that makes that part of your argument invalid to begin with.

[JokersWild24]

Only one flaw in your reasoning Joker. You first surmise that there is a case to take AI over Isaiah. False premise, there isn't one, so that makes that part of your argument invalid to begin with.

 

Hahaha... true.

 

I do think that a team like this year's Bucks would probably be better off with Iverson than they would be with Thomas if you are going to look at them in terms of a 3 year run.

 

I did Thomas' argument last, but he's kind of growing on me the more I think about it.

 

The biggest thing I have for Iverson is his #2 rank in playoff PPG to Jordan and the fact that I don't think he was as bad of a teammate as he was sometimes portrayed (consider the Olympic team involvement).

 

Looking at the #'s, Thomas had a career that exceeded my expectations for sure.

[PurplePride92]

Another key thing to remember is that the Pistons built their team around Isaiah. They got Isaiah the pieces and he won with them. Philly was built around Iverson but he only got them so far.

[Jim Schue]

Perhaps the most interesting thing about that stat breakdown between the two is what Zeke does when playoff time comes around. His scoring spikes, with a corresponding (but slight) dip in his FG pct from regular to postseason as he takes more shots. Even more impressive is a huge spike in his 3FG pct from 29 to 34.6 as well as a slight uptick in his FT shooting, which shows how clutch he was (all encapsulated in that legendary 3rd quarter v. LA). Not saying AI wasn't clutch, but Zeke was definitely more so and has the rings to prove it.

 

Much is made about AI not having any decent teammates, which is a fair cop. However, I never really heard much during his playing career about people dying to go to Philly to play 2nd banana to him, and I don't think that's a coincidence.