How does Billy Gillispie's 2009 team compare in talent?

[westsider]

The 1986 team not only had more talent, but it was more of a veteran team, especially in the backcourt. Sutton had more to work with, period.

 

Jasper's presence could have closed the gap somewhat, but not entirely.

[strongopenyon]

^ I think you're the only one that feels that way. Now if you want to ask would Sutton have won more games with this years team you would probably have more people agree.

On this forum I am.

 

My guess would be that some of those disagreeing with my point did not even see the 1986 team play or were too young to remember.

 

You are following my point that a different coach (not only Eddie Sutton) could have had tremendous success with this talent, in this conference, this season.

 

Sure this team has weaknesses. A solid coach masks weaknesses, plays to strengths, and adjusts from there.

[LRCW]

Who were some of the reserves on that 86 team? I'm sure Westsider can help us out here. I want to say Rob Lock, who developed into a decent player his senior year, Cedric Jenkins, but my mind is completely drawing a blank on the others.

[mobaar]

On this forum I am.

 

My guess would be that some of those disagreeing with my point did not even see the 1986 team play or were too young to remember.

 

You are following my point that a different coach (not only Eddie Sutton) could have had tremendous success with this talent, in this conference, this season.

 

Sure this team has weaknesses. A solid coach masks weaknesses, plays to strengths, and adjusts from there.

 

You really need to give up on this 86 team not having the talent. Far too wide a variety of posters disagree.

 

On the other hand, if you're just trying to argue another coach could have done more with this team, I think most will agree.

 

Heck, even I would agree, and I'm a big BCG supporter. He refuses to change his style, and I think that has definitely cost them some games over the last two years. However I think its building a good foundation, and I still think he'll be successful (if he makes it long enough).

[Hatz]

You make some fantastic points, "Hatz".

 

You mentioned Kenny Walker's game suffering in the NBA because of how he was used in college with his back to the basket. This is exactly what is happening right now with Patrick Patterson and I will tell you his family is well aware of it.

 

Billy Clyde has done nothing to help Patrick Patterson's game project to the next level. Nothing.

 

Unfortunately, college basketball has become a day care for the players with NBA ability like Patrick Patterson. Like it or not, Patrick came to UK for what he thought would be one or two seasons in order to groom himself to play in the league that pays the big, big bucks. Billy Clyde has not begun to round out Patrick's game for the next level. I understand it is not his job to do that, but if he ever again wishes to recruit a top flight talent like Patrick Patterson, he better get his own game together. Other coaches will make sure other five star like talent is aware of it as the negatively recruit against Billy Gillispie.

 

Eddie Sutton masked Kenny Walker's weaknesses in his one season coaching him at Kentucky, and showcased his strengths. Eddie Sutton's coaching and style allowed Kenny Walker to be a lottery type pick in the NBA draft and make great money. Had Billy Gillispie come close to doing that for Patrick Patterson, I think he would be leaving UK this season as a top five NBA draft pick. That is not going to happen now.

 

Back to the thread........I disagree with "Hatz" comparison of Kenny Walker and Patrick Patterson. I think their games are similar and I think that had Patterson been packaged and developed by his coach like Walker was, Patterson's game in college would be stronger. Kenny Walker did have a superb senior season, but he did it with great coaching from Eddie Sutton. I just do not believe Billy Clyde has come close to that type of development with Patrick Patterson.

 

I'm not sure that Sutton "masked" weaknesses of Walker. You do realize that his stats as a Junior were even more impressive under Hall? He averaged 10 rebounds a game and nearly 23 points per game as a JUNIOR.

 

Walker's senior year he averaged 20 points per game and closer to 9 rebounds an outing. So I don't know if your can say that Sutton developed him as much as Hall did. When Walker was a Sophomore he was the Small Forward on the squad and did a lot more "facing the basket" but by his last 2 years there were few who could post up in either Hall or Sutton's system with the consistency needed.

 

I think they are comparable but the two teams are not. The '86 team was far superior to this edition of the Cats in the way they played and the talent level of the squads. With a better supporting cast, Patterson might have comparable results to what Walker had.

[okie1]

On this forum I am.

 

My guess would be that some of those disagreeing with my point did not even see the 1986 team play or were too young to remember.

 

You are following my point that a different coach (not only Eddie Sutton) could have had tremendous success with this talent, in this conference, this season.

 

Sure this team has weaknesses. A solid coach masks weaknesses, plays to strengths, and adjusts from there.

 

Then why didn't you just make this your thread. Maybe we can compare the 1990 Pitino team with this team, or the 73 Cats Hall Led team, or maybe the 1930 UK Rupp led team.

 

I am sure a lot of coaches could have led this UK team to a better record, just as more coaches might not have as good a record.

 

This UK team has 0 basketball IQ. This IMO makes it tough for any coach!!

[Hatz]

Patrick Patterson is stronger and more powerful than Kenny Walker. Sure he can do similar things if they are taught to him.

 

Michael Porter is a better athlete than was Roger Harden. He is not as good a shooter as Roger in his senior year (he did much of nothing before that banner senior year). Porter can get the ball to Patterson, if taught.

 

The whole point is coaching a team to play to their strengths, mask their weaknesses, and adjust as needed.

 

This is the issue at the University of Kentucky!

 

You do realize that in Harden's last three years he had: 232 assists, 142 assists and 99 assists?

 

Porter has 82 in 30 games. He also averages 4.1 points per game.

 

I think I'll take unathletic over athletic. BTW, Harden was Indiana Mr. Basketball in '82.

 

I dont' think the issue is just coaching.

[Hatz]

Just as Eddie Sutton used Kenny Walker in 1986. That is my whole point!

 

Inside/Outside.

 

Posting, flashing into the middle, turning and facing, pulling the bigger/less mobile opponents big man away, shooting a mid-range jump shot, kicking out of double and triple teams.

 

If I had a tape of how Eddie Sutton used Kenny Walker in 1986 I would send it to everyone. UK had a great season and Kenny Walker was a top five pick in the NBA draft.

 

I wish the same for UK and Patrick Patterson. My point to this thread is the two teams are very similar in talent and the style that they should be playing, only this year's edition has the advantage of spreading the floor more with the three point line that was not part of the game in 1986.

 

I remember Hall doing more of that with him than Sutton. Mainly out of necessity.

 

In fact, during Hall's last year, Bret Bearup and Troy McKinley used to joke about the new photos at the Lodge:

 

"Here's one of Troy setting a pick for Kenny Walker."

 

"Here's a pick by Bearup for Kenny Walker."

 

"Here's a picture of Robey and Phillips setting a double screen for Kenny Walker." (All tongue in cheek of course.)

[strongopenyon]

"I am sure a lot of coaches could have led this UK team to a better record, just as more coaches might not have as good a record."

 

It is one or the other, isn't it? What were you saying about basketball IQ?

[Hatz]

On this forum I am.

 

My guess would be that some of those disagreeing with my point did not even see the 1986 team play or were too young to remember.

 

You are following my point that a different coach (not only Eddie Sutton) could have had tremendous success with this talent, in this conference, this season.

 

Sure this team has weaknesses. A solid coach masks weaknesses, plays to strengths, and adjusts from there.

 

I saw them, up close and personal. (to some extent)

 

I just think your rating of the talent is off. As Westsider also mentioned, that team was "experienced."

 

Walker started for 3 years.

Bennett was starting for his 2nd year and had played significantly his Frosh year.

Harden had 2 1/2 years starting.

Blackmon had played quality minutes for 3 years.

Davender was in his 2nd year.

 

 

What was the experience on this year's team?

[strongopenyon]

I remember Hall doing more of that with him than Sutton. Mainly out of necessity.

 

In fact, during Hall's last year, Bret Bearup and Troy McKinley used to joke about the new photos at the Lodge:

 

"Here's one of Troy setting a pick for Kenny Walker."

 

"Here's a pick by Bearup for Kenny Walker."

 

"Here's a picture of Robey and Phillips setting a double screen for Kenny Walker." (All tongue in cheek of course.)

Rick Robey and Mike Phillips did not play with Kenny Walker.

[Hatz]

Rick Robey and Mike Phillips did not play with Kenny Walker.

 

I know. And Bret knew too. It was joke. Hence, the smiley.

[bugatti]

strongopenyon,

 

We get it. You dislike BCG and think he is not fit for UK and he is a horrible coach. I am not sure what you want everyone to say???

 

You refute virtually every statment people make regarding this and other BCG threads and we are not really getting anywhere here with these threads.

[strongopenyon]

I saw them, up close and personal. (to some extent)

 

I just think your rating of the talent is off. As Westsider also mentioned, that team was "experienced."

 

Walker started for 3 years.

Bennett was starting for his 2nd year and had played significantly his Frosh year.

Harden had 2 1/2 years starting.

Blackmon had played quality minutes for 3 years.

Davender was in his 2nd year.

 

 

What was the experience on this year's team?

Experience is certainly a factor.

 

Your perceived difference in talent is because one team played very well together and the current edition of the Wildcats do not. It is not because of a lack of talent because there is plenty.

 

It is easy for Kentucky fans to look at this team and think they are not talented players, but that is not true. If Michael Porter is your best option at point guard, then use him so as not to expose all his weaknesses. For one, he should never be out top handling the ball against a player with the quickness of Devin Downey. Let one of the other players, Jodie Meeks or Darius Miller, handle it up top against, their man who is certainly not as quick as Downey.

 

I remember Jamal Mashburn handling the ball out front on my occasions because the other team might have a lightning quick defender who our guards might have a problem handling it against.

 

This year's team gives great effort, has plenty of talent, and is very poorly prepared to play against each opponent. When you are playing man-to-man versus a team also playing man-to-man, t is a game of match ups and Billy Clyde never adjusts at either end of the floor. Pound it in to Patterson on the blocks and have Jodie Meeks running himself until his tongue is hanging out freeing himself from men chasing him like a robber.

Edited March 6, 2009 by strongopenyon

[westsider]

Some other points to consider when comparing these two teams from different eras:

 

The 1986 season was the NCAA's first year with a 45-second shot clock. Some conferences had experimented with different clocks for the previous three or four years.

 

It was also the last year of no 3-point line in NCAA Tournament play.

 

Sutton's three-guard lineup was considered a bit unusual then. Most teams still started a conventional lineup with a center, two forwards and two guards. And the lines between the various positions weren't as blurry as they are now.