How does Billy Gillispie's 2009 team compare in talent?

[Original Rookie]

I disagree.

 

Do you remember that team?

 

No. I was born in 1986.

[The Professor]

Eddie Sutton could take this UK team and have maybe 5 to 6 losses, tops. He'd probably make a few gametime adjustments to accomplish that stat, but he would have the basketball knowledge to get it done. I could say the same thing for Tubby, Rick, Joe, and Adolph. UK would be in the NCAA tournament with these guys.

 

UK's program is in a free fall right now. It may take a while to get it straightened out. And it willl take a unique person who can handle the pressure of a big time program. I think the first step is to see that this was a bad hire, and move on. It will not be easy, and the national media will be tough, but sometimes you have to make these type of decisions. Hiring mistakes are made in all areas of work, but they can be corrected. It's no difference in college basketball than any other job.

[pigman]

Suttons team was more talented. Kenny Walker was better than any body on this team. Nobody on this team comes close to Winston Bennett other than Patrick. Ed Davender and Meeks are comparable and Suttons team had a true point guard in Roger Hardin.

[Hatz]

Eddie Sutton went 32-4 in 1986, his first year with Kentucky. The SEC was a much stronger conference that season. Which team had more talent?

 

UK (1986)

 

Kenny Walker

Winston Bennett

Ed Davender

James Blackmon

Roger Harden

 

UK (2009)

 

Patrick Patterson

Perry Stevenson

Jody Meeks

Darius Miller

Michael Porter

 

These two teams seem to be very close in style of players and talent to me! Players are about the same, their results are very different.

 

I honestly thank the '86 team was way more talented.

 

PG Roger Harden wins hands down. He ran the show and was a good assist man. He also hit some clutch shots (LSU in the regular season in Baton Rouge comes to mind).

 

SG Meeks is the more talented scorer but Davender was no slouch. He had assists and hit the jumper well.

 

Center Patterson is a stud but he's not Kenny Walker. The Skywalker averaged double digits in Rebounds and 20+ a game for 2 consecutive years. The offense was funneled through him in '86.

 

SF Blackmon and Miller are close to a wash. Miller has the potential to be a better scorer but Blackmon played excellent defense and he used his quickness and hops well to get on the boards. Blackmon was really a 2 playing the 3 hole and he was a Junior to Miller's Freshman status.

 

PF Bennett versus Stevenson is no contest. Bennet was a good rebounder and defender. Not a shot blocker but solid and he could score, something Stevenson can not do.

 

I don't see the 2 teams as close at all. It's also a poor model because the 3 point line the next year changed the game entirely. Sutton coached the old game well but he had trouble adjusting to the 3 point game like Crum did. Just ask Rex Chapman.

 

I might add that Walker and Bennett had some decent production in the NBA. Kenny's game suffered in the NBA because both Hall and Sutton had used him as a "back to the basket" guy his last 2 years. Bennett was a solid contributor for a couple of years with the Cavaliers if I recall.

[LRCW]

I honestly thank the '86 team was way more talented.

 

PG Roger Harden wins hands down. He ran the show and was a good assist man. He also hit some clutch shots (LSU in the regular season in Baton Rouge comes to mind).

 

SG Meeks is the more talented scorer but Davender was no slouch. He had assists and hit the jumper well.

 

Center Patterson is a stud but he's not Kenny Walker. The Skywalker averaged double digits in Rebounds and 20+ a game for 2 consecutive years. The offense was funneled through him in '86.

 

SF Blackmon and Miller are close to a wash. Miller has the potential to be a better scorer but Blackmon played excellent defense and he used his quickness and hops well to get on the boards. Blackmon was really a 2 playing the 3 hole and he was a Junior to Miller's Freshman status.

 

PF Bennett versus Stevenson is no contest. Bennet was a good rebounder and defender. Not a shot blocker but solid and he could score, something Stevenson can not do.

 

I don't see the 2 teams as close at all. It's also a poor model because the 3 point line the next year changed the game entirely. Sutton coached the old game well but he had trouble adjusting to the 3 point game like Crum did. Just ask Rex Chapman.

 

I might add that Walker and Bennett had some decent production in the NBA. Kenny's game suffered in the NBA because both Hall and Sutton had used him as a "back to the basket" guy his last 2 years. Bennett was a solid contributor for a couple of years with the Cavaliers if I recall.

 

 

 

Very good breakdown Hatz. :thumb:

[strongopenyon]

You make some fantastic points, "Hatz".

 

You mentioned Kenny Walker's game suffering in the NBA because of how he was used in college with his back to the basket. This is exactly what is happening right now with Patrick Patterson and I will tell you his family is well aware of it.

 

Billy Clyde has done nothing to help Patrick Patterson's game project to the next level. Nothing.

 

Unfortunately, college basketball has become a day care for the players with NBA ability like Patrick Patterson. Like it or not, Patrick came to UK for what he thought would be one or two seasons in order to groom himself to play in the league that pays the big, big bucks. Billy Clyde has not begun to round out Patrick's game for the next level. I understand it is not his job to do that, but if he ever again wishes to recruit a top flight talent like Patrick Patterson, he better get his own game together. Other coaches will make sure other five star like talent is aware of it as the negatively recruit against Billy Gillispie.

 

Eddie Sutton masked Kenny Walker's weaknesses in his one season coaching him at Kentucky, and showcased his strengths. Eddie Sutton's coaching and style allowed Kenny Walker to be a lottery type pick in the NBA draft and make great money. Had Billy Gillispie come close to doing that for Patrick Patterson, I think he would be leaving UK this season as a top five NBA draft pick. That is not going to happen now.

 

Back to the thread........I disagree with "Hatz" comparison of Kenny Walker and Patrick Patterson. I think their games are similar and I think that had Patterson been packaged and developed by his coach like Walker was, Patterson's game in college would be stronger. Kenny Walker did have a superb senior season, but he did it with great coaching from Eddie Sutton. I just do not believe Billy Clyde has come close to that type of development with Patrick Patterson.

[pigman]

Kenny Walker was very good well before Sutton got here. So you would have Gillispie do what's best for PP instead of the team. Next year if PP stays and Orton and Pilgrim are here then PP can show and work on his other skills right now he is doing what the team needs him too.

[strongopenyon]

Kenny Walker was very good well before Sutton got here. So you would have Gillispie do what's best for PP instead of the team. Next year if PP stays and Orton and Pilgrim are here then PP can show and work on his other skills right now he is doing what the team needs him too.

It is not best for the team to put Patrick Patterson in the blocks posting up all game, that is my whole point.

 

Billy Gillispie will never get a Patrick Patterson type of player again if his style is to showcase him the way he has. Trust me on this one! Every coach recruiting that same top flight talent will make the player and his braintrusts aware of it.

 

Their are ways to showcase your star players and still accomplish team goals and unity.

[pigman]

So how would you use him?

[super]

Eddie Sutton could take this UK team and have maybe 5 to 6 losses, tops. He'd probably make a few gametime adjustments to accomplish that stat, but he would have the basketball knowledge to get it done. I could say the same thing for Tubby, Rick, Joe, and Adolph. UK would be in the NCAA tournament with these guys.

 

UK's program is in a free fall right now. It may take a while to get it straightened out. And it willl take a unique person who can handle the pressure of a big time program. I think the first step is to see that this was a bad hire, and move on. It will not be easy, and the national media will be tough, but sometimes you have to make these type of decisions. Hiring mistakes are made in all areas of work, but they can be corrected. It's no difference in college basketball than any other job.

 

:thumb::thumb::thumb:

[strongopenyon]

Just as Eddie Sutton used Kenny Walker in 1986. That is my whole point!

 

Inside/Outside.

 

Posting, flashing into the middle, turning and facing, pulling the bigger/less mobile opponents big man away, shooting a mid-range jump shot, kicking out of double and triple teams.

 

If I had a tape of how Eddie Sutton used Kenny Walker in 1986 I would send it to everyone. UK had a great season and Kenny Walker was a top five pick in the NBA draft.

 

I wish the same for UK and Patrick Patterson. My point to this thread is the two teams are very similar in talent and the style that they should be playing, only this year's edition has the advantage of spreading the floor more with the three point line that was not part of the game in 1986.

[pigman]

Kenny Walker was quicker and more mobile than PP, so I really don't see how you could expect PP to do the same things. Again you had a point guard that could get the ball to Walker.

[strongopenyon]

Patrick Patterson is stronger and more powerful than Kenny Walker. Sure he can do similar things if they are taught to him.

 

Michael Porter is a better athlete than was Roger Harden. He is not as good a shooter as Roger in his senior year (he did much of nothing before that banner senior year). Porter can get the ball to Patterson, if taught.

 

The whole point is coaching a team to play to their strengths, mask their weaknesses, and adjust as needed.

 

This is the issue at the University of Kentucky!

[pigman]

I will agree in game adjustments are minimal under Gillispie, but I don't get to watch practices, so I really don't know what's being taught.

[strongopenyon]

But you and I get to see the results of that teaching in progress each time the Cats take the floor. I don't have to go to practices everyday to see the teaching progress.......it is minimal.