Pitching Limits

[CCHS_Dad]

They had selected several programs, to test this and reports were sent ot the University of North Carolina. Analysis was conducted and they derived the numbers, based off the input from various leagues and baseball people.

 

This can be done in Kentucky, given the ability to communicate through data bases, KHSAA website and technology. Just has to be a priority, with the right group.

 

You would think that this would be a priority with MLB since pitching at the highest level is at best pretty common.

[The Great Game]

I'm sure alot of the top programs are already doing this advanced charting. Back when I was throwing in high school and college total pitches thrown were kept, but not all the different pitches. Sure makes a ton of sense. Do you think they are charting location? I believe that is more important than the type of pitch thrown.

[Homerun]

I have tried to read as much as possible about pitching and arm injuries the last few years. A couple of things not mentioned yet are worth doing so. First, it seems that a lot of youth coaches know little about pitching, pitching mechanics, and injury prevention. The role of core muscles is also neglected.

[STRIKE3]

I'm sure alot of the top programs are already doing this advanced charting. Back when I was throwing in high school and college total pitches thrown were kept, but not all the different pitches. Sure makes a ton of sense. Do you think they are charting location? I believe that is more important than the type of pitch thrown.

I know many, who not only chart pitches, but location thrown and result (ball/strike, taken or swing).

 

I'm of the belief, the more results you can analyze, the easier to make adjustments in areas, which are lacking. For example....a RHP averages 100 pitches per game, with 65 being strikes and 35 balls. I want to know, out of the 65 strikes, which and how many were FB', CV's and SL's....Same on number of non-strikes and I also want to know, which "zone" he is accurate in and which, lacks consistency.

 

Charting Pitches, Tendencies, Hit Location, Scouting Reports and much more, are a priority to most top programs.

[stickymitts]

I have tried to read as much as possible about pitching and arm injuries the last few years. A couple of things not mentioned yet are worth doing so. First, it seems that a lot of youth coaches know little about pitching, pitching mechanics, and injury prevention. The role of core muscles is also neglected.

 

Which, IMO, is the reason for needing a pitch count. Throwing 100 pitches with proper mechanics is one thing. Throwing 100 pitches with horrible mechanics can be damaging...

[STRIKE3]

Which, IMO, is the reason for needing a pitch count. Throwing 100 pitches with proper mechanics is one thing. Throwing 100 pitches with horrible mechanics can be damaging...

Excellent point and HR is correct, core work is essential to any pitcher. Not only can stamina issues, result in arm damage but proper core conditioning, can extend pitches and help minimize injuries.

[The Great Game]

Excellent point and HR is correct, core work is essential to any pitcher. Not only can stamina issues, result in arm damage but proper core conditioning, can extend pitches and help minimize injuries.

 

 

I hope we can get more and more sophisticated for the good of the next generation of pitchers coming. It would be interesting to see which local programs are doing this already. I would make a bet that it shows in the results of those teams...

[goallout25]

Has anyone seen the new pitching technique that former NL Cy Young winner Mike Marshall is teaching? It is supposed to eliminate all arm troubles.

[STRIKE3]

Has anyone seen the new pitching technique that former NL Cy Young winner Mike Marshall is teaching? It is supposed to eliminate all arm troubles.

Anyone, whom has ever seen this video, would be skeptical of this motion eliminating arm injuries. He teaches a step and no leg kick or turn (load).

 

It's an overhand motion, with a pronounced turning over of the hand, with the thumb/index, pointing downward and creating, a screwball type of release. The strong "T" position, is very noticeable, when the pitcher extends him arm back and the stride, begins the motion.

 

My comment on Marshall's philosophy, is hogwash....The only "natural motion" and with limited damage, is the underhand toss, like a softball.

[cometscoach]

For the sake of discussion, if a Pitch Count limit is instituted, let's have some criteria....

 

Total Pitch Counts

8th Grade = 55 Pitches (3 days of rest)

Freshmen = 65 Pitches (3 days of rest)

Sophomore = 80 Pitches (3 days of rest)

Junior = 95 Pitches (3 days of rest)

Senior = 105 Pitches (3 days of rest)

Total Limit in 7 Day Period

8th Grade = 100 Pitches (7 calendar days)

Freshmen = 115 Pitches (7 calendar days)

Sophomore = 150 Pitches (7 calendar days)

Junior = 175 Pitches (7 calendar days)

Senior = 195 Pitches (7 calendar days)

 

Should early in season, totals be reduced by 20, until after 3rd start? Thoughts or comments....

 

S3 I could not agree more with what you say. I have coached for several years but more to the point I am a Certified Orthopedic Specialist in physical therapy. Once a muscle reaches failure (fatigue) every pitch is 3x as hard on the surrounding tissue. Therefore at that point each pitch should actually count as 3.

 

My concern however with your limitation suggestion is that it penalizes players that have made the extra efforts to succeed. i.e. players like Brandon Alpin who is a 9th grader and pitched a 9 inning win against North Bullitt in the first game of district play (108 pitches) and will be returning tonight in the regional semi-finals against PRP. Although Brandon is an exception he has conditioned all year, trained vigorously on technique, and has taken excellent care of his arm. Does this mean he will not suffer an injury (no), but he is as prepared as most seniors.

[STRIKE3]

S3 I could not agree more with what you say. I have coached for several years but more to the point I am a Certified Orthopedic Specialist in physical therapy. Once a muscle reaches failure (fatigue) every pitch is 3x as hard on the surrounding tissue. Therefore at that point each pitch should actually count as 3.

 

My concern however with your limitation suggestion is that it penalizes players that have made the extra efforts to succeed. i.e. players like Brandon Alpin who is a 9th grader and pitched a 9 inning win against North Bullitt in the first game of district play (108 pitches) and will be returning tonight in the regional semi-finals against PRP. Although Brandon is an exception he has conditioned all year, trained vigorously on technique, and has taken excellent care of his arm. Does this mean he will not suffer an injury (no), but he is as prepared as most seniors.

Excellent point and for every Alpin, there will be 9 others, who are not as conditioned. You can probably speak on the subject, of Jobe Exercises, Plyometrics and Band, which I constantly encourage any pitcher to do. Arm recovery, is critical to repairing the damaged blood vessels, near the rotator cuff and surrounding shoulder tissue.

 

Players like him, will have a quicker recovery and even a more prosperous career, if totals are limited. At the same time, something we've not discussed in this thread, I also believe "command of pitches" would increase, since players would be more focused, prepared and aware of impending pitch totals.

 

It may be a win/win situation, over time.

[cooperstown]

Has anyone seen the new pitching technique that former NL Cy Young winner Mike Marshall is teaching? It is supposed to eliminate all arm troubles.

 

I am going to try to find the video I once had of Marshall's instructional techniques and post it. I purposefully kept it around so that I would have something to remind me of the wrong way to teach kids to throw. His training method was so absolutely bizarre it is not possible to articulate here. The man was a very successful major league pitcher, but even his own motion was nothing like he now teaches. Dick Mills get a little too mechanical at times, but he has some good information to offer to aspiring pitchers.

[cooperstown]

S3 I could not agree more with what you say. I have coached for several years but more to the point I am a Certified Orthopedic Specialist in physical therapy. Once a muscle reaches failure (fatigue) every pitch is 3x as hard on the surrounding tissue. Therefore at that point each pitch should actually count as 3.

 

My concern however with your limitation suggestion is that it penalizes players that have made the extra efforts to succeed. i.e. players like Brandon Alpin who is a 9th grader and pitched a 9 inning win against North Bullitt in the first game of district play (108 pitches) and will be returning tonight in the regional semi-finals against PRP. Although Brandon is an exception he has conditioned all year, trained vigorously on technique, and has taken excellent care of his arm. Does this mean he will not suffer an injury (no), but he is as prepared as most seniors.

 

The problem with letting younger kids - even those in tip top condition - is that for many of them their growth plates have not fully closed and it is not really a question of conditioning. If you are saying that a boy threw 108 pitches and is coming back two nights later to pitch again, I would find it hard to believe that many physical therapists/trainers would support this. Major leaguers do not put this kind of stress on their arms and I doubt it would be a healthy thing for a 14-15 year old. CAN he do it and SHOULD he do it are two entirely different things.

[The Great Game]

The problem with letting younger kids - even those in tip top condition - is that for many of them their growth plates have not fully closed and it is not really a question of conditioning. If you are saying that a boy threw 108 pitches and is coming back two nights later to pitch again, I would find it hard to believe that many physical therapists/trainers would support this. Major leaguers do not put this kind of stress on their arms and I doubt it would be a healthy thing for a 14-15 year old. CAN he do it and SHOULD he do it are two entirely different things.

 

Well said Coop... 3 days maybe. This kid has a lot of innings ahead of him to throw and he doesn't need to use them all up now.

[old ndn]

I assumed the totals and innings pitched, were accurate. My dismay, was the total pitches, would even approach a number like 200.

 

They're accurate. One of the opposing team's asst. coaches/statisticians charts pitches for the games. We have seen this kid 3 times this season, and each time the games have been run-ruled, and he has thrown 150-200 pitches each time(202 last game). I don't think the head coach has any idea of the possible damage he has done. Pre-season rules interpretation meetings usually address this problem. Unfortunately, we coaches are all on the honor system and are expected to adhere to the rules. You guys have listed some good ideas and thoughts on how to help address the problem. Next step?