They're accurate. One of the opposing team's asst. coaches/statisticians charts pitches for the games. We have seen this kid 3 times this season, and each time the games have been run-ruled, and he has thrown 150-200 pitches each time(202 last game). I don't think the head coach has any idea of the possible damage he has done. Pre-season rules interpretation meetings usually address this problem. Unfortunately, we coaches are all on the honor system and are expected to adhere to the rules. You guys have listed some good ideas and thoughts on how to help address the problem. Next step?

 

 

Has anyone, parents or fellow coaches, said anything to this coach?

For the sake of discussion, if a Pitch Count limit is instituted, let's have some criteria....

 

Total Pitch Counts

8th Grade = 55 Pitches (3 days of rest)

Freshmen = 65 Pitches (3 days of rest)

Sophomore = 80 Pitches (3 days of rest)

Junior = 95 Pitches (3 days of rest)

Senior = 105 Pitches (3 days of rest)

Total Limit in 7 Day Period

8th Grade = 100 Pitches (7 calendar days)

Freshmen = 115 Pitches (7 calendar days)

Sophomore = 150 Pitches (7 calendar days)

Junior = 175 Pitches (7 calendar days)

Senior = 195 Pitches (7 calendar days)

 

Should early in season, totals be reduced by 20, until after 3rd start? Thoughts or comments....

 

I definitely agree with the early season reduction in pitches for a lot of reasons. Primarily because of outdoor temperatures. Early in the season its cold. Even a kid who has been throwing all winter long indoor quit often never gets completely warmed up because of the outdoor temps.

 

Pitch count limits is so obviously correct. Why can't something this easy be put in the rule book by the KHSAA for the protection of the kids arms?

 

Oh! I'm Sorry, I had a brain fart, the KHSAA is NOT about the kids, they're about what's fair for their superintendents. They wouldn't consider anything this sensible. That would be to easy!:irked:

The problem with letting younger kids - even those in tip top condition - is that for many of them their growth plates have not fully closed and it is not really a question of conditioning. If you are saying that a boy threw 108 pitches and is coming back two nights later to pitch again, I would find it hard to believe that many physical therapists/trainers would support this. Major leaguers do not put this kind of stress on their arms and I doubt it would be a healthy thing for a 14-15 year old. CAN he do it and SHOULD he do it are two entirely different things.

 

You misread. He pitched the first night of district play. Therefore he has had a full 5 day rest. You bring up some validity about the growth plate but it is not typically and issue. If you see the growth plate being involved it is typically in the elbow and the injury is more related to poor mechanics or a higher proportion of breaking pitches.

You misread. He pitched the first night of district play. Therefore he has had a full 5 day rest. You bring up some validity about the growth plate but it is not typically and issue. If you see the growth plate being involved it is typically in the elbow and the injury is more related to poor mechanics or a higher proportion of breaking pitches.

I agree, regarding the growth plates. My more concern, is the ligaments and tendons, leading to the elbow and the muscle, lapping over the rotator cuff.

 

The ruptured blood vessels, which arise in the should from throwing, can recover in 24hr or so, with ice and rest.

 

Growth plates, often times effect knees or ankles with more pain, than they do the shoulder or the arm.

I agree, regarding the growth plates. My more concern, is the ligaments and tendons, leading to the elbow and the muscle, lapping over the rotator cuff.

 

The ruptured blood vessels, which arise in the should from throwing, can recover in 24hr or so, with ice and rest.

 

Growth plates, often times effect knees or ankles with more pain, than they do the shoulder or the arm.

 

Guess I disagree with you for certain on this one. I can give you several examples recently of 13-14 year old boys cracking the growth plate in their shoulder/elbow. I know for a fact one of them had nothing to do with misuse because one was my pitcher and I count pitches closer than anyone. His ortho said that sometimes there is nothing you can do - short of not playing ball - because the bottom line is that an overhand throwing motion is not normal to the body and does put stress on these areas. Growth plates in the shoulder and elbow area generally (not always, it varies between kids) do not fully close until the 14 year old range - some sooner, some later. He stated that because boys are getting so much bigger and stronger muscularly at an early age these days that they are able to put more stress on these joints than can sometimes be handled. I won't say this ortho's name, but he is one of the top guys in Greater Cincinnati area.

Guess I disagree with you for certain on this one. I can give you several examples recently of 13-14 year old boys cracking the growth plate in their shoulder/elbow. I know for a fact one of them had nothing to do with misuse because one was my pitcher and I count pitches closer than anyone. His ortho said that sometimes there is nothing you can do - short of not playing ball - because the bottom line is that an overhand throwing motion is not normal to the body and does put stress on these areas. Growth plates in the shoulder and elbow area generally (not always, it varies between kids) do not fully close until the 14 year old range - some sooner, some later. He stated that because boys are getting so much bigger and stronger muscularly at an early age these days that they are able to put more stress on these joints than can sometimes be handled. I won't say this ortho's name, but he is one of the top guys in Greater Cincinnati area.

If you can give several examples, of Pitchers who are 13-14, cracking their growth plates, there is an issue other than throwing, which is causing this.

 

Not many teens, crack their growth plate by pitching. I'm sure, Ortho's see this injury, more in Football, Soccer and Wrestling, than in Baseball. Arm fatigue and soreness, approach much more rapidly and result in blood vessel rupture, than cracking growth plates.

 

I may know the Dr., in which you speak and he's highly respected by anyone, including myself and I would imagine, he also would add growth plate damage, can be caused from initial contact in the sports I mentioned, more than throwing a Baseball, with proper mechanics.

They're accurate. One of the opposing team's asst. coaches/statisticians charts pitches for the games. We have seen this kid 3 times this season, and each time the games have been run-ruled, and he has thrown 150-200 pitches each time(202 last game). I don't think the head coach has any idea of the possible damage he has done.

 

Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic if there is a high school coach out there throwing some kid this number of pitches. Frankly, I'd like to see his name revealed. He obviously isn't the slightest bit embarrasssed about what he's doing, so why should he be allowed to remain anonymous? What he is doing is nothing short of commiting physical abuse. Unethical? Heck, it should probably be illegal. And where are this kid's parents? How can they possibly condone this?

 

I am disappointed if KHSAA takes no action in this regard. Do they not have the authority to look into this situation and take appropriate action in a case where a kid is being physically abused? If not, what earthly good are they? This coach should be banned from high school baseball in Kentucky before he hurt someone seriously/permanently. Period.

Excellent point and for every Alpin, there will be 9 others, who are not as conditioned. You can probably speak on the subject, of Jobe Exercises, Plyometrics and Band, which I constantly encourage any pitcher to do. Arm recovery, is critical to repairing the damaged blood vessels, near the rotator cuff and surrounding shoulder tissue.

 

Players like him, will have a quicker recovery and even a more prosperous career, if totals are limited. At the same time, something we've not discussed in this thread, I also believe "command of pitches" would increase, since players would be more focused, prepared and aware of impending pitch totals.

 

It may be a win/win situation, over time.

 

 

There are a lot of factors to maintaining arm health. Mechanics and conditioning are extremely important. Another factor is arm fatique. At the American Institute of Sports Medicine, a research study supported that a youth pitcher is 36 times more likely to have arm surgery if he regularly throws with arm fatique. See the article: http://http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/adolescentepi.htm. Also, what are your beliefs about pithcers that play other positions. I think that most kids in high school that are good pitchers and good hitters are too young to have to make a choice between one or the other. Yet at the same time, by playing other positions, their arms do not rest. Any thoughts?

If you can give several examples, of Pitchers who are 13-14, cracking their growth plates, there is an issue other than throwing, which is causing this.

 

Not many teens, crack their growth plate by pitching. I'm sure, Ortho's see this injury, more in Football, Soccer and Wrestling, than in Baseball. Arm fatigue and soreness, approach much more rapidly and result in blood vessel rupture, than cracking growth plates.

 

I may know the Dr., in which you speak and he's highly respected by anyone, including myself and I would imagine, he also would add growth plate damage, can be caused from initial contact in the sports I mentioned, more than throwing a Baseball, with proper mechanics.

 

 

From what I've read from the experts, the greatest risks of injury in the younger ages until the body stops growing is the following. The bones are growing quickly, but the muscles, ligaments, and tendons have a hard time adjusting or "keeping up" with the bone growth. Here is an interesting article that mentions some of this: http://http://www.pitching.com/article/a-youth-coach-and-orthopedic-surgeons-viewpoint-on-conditioning-the-pitcher/. Here is another interesting interview with Dr. James Andrews: http://http://www.pitching.com/article/why-youth-and-high-school-pitchers-wont-make-it-to-pro-ball/

There are a lot of factors to maintaining arm health. Mechanics and conditioning are extremely important. Another factor is arm fatique. At the American Institute of Sports Medicine, a research study supported that a youth pitcher is 36 times more likely to have arm surgery if he regularly throws with arm fatigue. See the article: http://http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/adolescentepi.htm. Also, what are your beliefs about pithcers that play other positions. I think that most kids in high school that are good pitchers and good hitters are too young to have to make a choice between one or the other. Yet at the same time, by playing other positions, their arms do not rest. Any thoughts?

Position players, who also pitch are very common in HS and I agree, is a potentially injury situation. I would like to see Pitchers who pitch on Monday, play 1st on Tuesday, rather than get stuck in the OF, making long throw or from SS, where they could possibly throw another 80-90 throws to 1st (including Infield, between innings and game)

 

Proper recovery, rest and care, are essential for pitchers and position players. Limiting throws, velocity and ensure proper stretching is done, for any pitcher, who will play the field.

 

Let them DH, if their pitch count totals are high. That one day off, can make a very big difference, in recovery.

They're accurate. One of the opposing team's asst. coaches/statisticians charts pitches for the games. We have seen this kid 3 times this season, and each time the games have been run-ruled, and he has thrown 150-200 pitches each time(202 last game). I don't think the head coach has any idea of the possible damage he has done.

 

Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic if there is a high school coach out there throwing some kid this number of pitches. Frankly, I'd like to see his name revealed. He obviously isn't the slightest bit embarrasssed about what he's doing, so why should he be allowed to remain anonymous? What he is doing is nothing short of commiting physical abuse. Unethical? Heck, it should probably be illegal. And where are this kid's parents? How can they possibly condone this?

 

I am disappointed if KHSAA takes no action in this regard. Do they not have the authority to look into this situation and take appropriate action in a case where a kid is being physically abused? If not, what earthly good are they? This coach should be banned from high school baseball in Kentucky before he hurt someone seriously/permanently. Period.

 

Coop - Don't be so quick to hang this coach. Here are a couple of points to think about.

1. IF this team run ruled their opponent 3 times, the pitcher could not possibly have thrown that many pitches. Unless the scores were 20 to 30; or he went to a full count on every batter and left the bases full every inning. I doubt either of those are what actually happened.

 

But, just for arguments sake, let's assume that this is the case and the kid has thrown 150 plus pitches.

 

2. There is nothing for the KHSAA to take action on. The coach is playing within the rules of the game. The KHSAA rules are stipulated on "INNINGS PITCHED", not pitch counts. That is the topic of this thread.

3. Maybe it's the kid doing the pushing to stay in the game. I saw a kid (Name and team intentionally withheld) in one of our early games this year pitch 9 strong innings. Still tied in the top of the tenth the same kid came out to pitch. The umpire told him he couldn't pitch because of the 9 inning per game limit set by KHSAA. The kid went off. His coach had to go out and get him off the field.

4. What about the kid's parents. Nine times out of ten it's the parents that are pushing little Johnny to do whatever it takes to get a scholarship. What they don't realize is that if little Johnny blows out an arm there won't be any athletic scholarship. They better hope his academics are good enough to get him some money.

 

There is a lot of contributing factors that are not known by anyone accept those directly involved. Every situation is going to be different. That's why KHSAA needs to adopt PITCH COUNTS instead of innings pitched to protect the kid from themselves, their coaches, and yes even their parents.

Birdiecat, I can't think of any circumstance, ANY....A pitcher in High School should/would be allowed, to throw 150-200 pitches....None.

 

There has to be an adult, who is responsible and accountable, for the welfare of his team. I've seen many, many games and probably, more than most and it can't be justified.

 

I do agree, Pitch Counts would eliminate problems like this.

Birdiecat, I can't think of any circumstance, ANY....A pitcher in High School should/would be allowed, to throw 150-200 pitches....None.

 

There has to be an adult, who is responsible and accountable, for the welfare of his team. I've seen many, many games and probably, more than most and it can't be justified.

 

I do agree, Pitch Counts would eliminate problems like this.

 

STRIKE3, You and I are in concert here. I agree a high school pitcher SHOULDN'T/WOULDN'T be allowed to throw 150-200 pitches. IT IS INSANE to let a kid throw that many pitches.

 

Food for thought.

 

1. MINIMUM PITCHES IN A NINE INNING, NO SCORE GAME: A pitcher throwing all strikes for nine full innings faces 27 batters. 27 batters times one pitch per batter equals 27 total pitches. (Assumes a ground out or pop-up on every batter.)

 

2. MAXIMUM PITCES IN A NINE INNING, NO SCORE GAME: A pitcher working every batter to a full count, loading the bases on the first three, then striking out the next three in every inning faces 54 batters. 54 batters times six pitches per batter equals 324. (Assumes no ground outs or pop-ups.)

 

Both scenarios are at the extreme, I know. Neither is going to happen except on a fluke.

 

But my point is this:

The range from 27 to 324 is very broad and open. A coach who only pays attention to innings pitched has no idea the exact number of pitches a kid has thrown. It is not inconceivable for a kid to get to that kind of pitch count if no-one is paying attention.

 

The best solution is a click counter. That's what I used and I would assign the task to my starting pitcher from our last game. It gave him something to do and kept him in the game.

 

I don't know the exact number the kid in my previous post was at, but I would venture to guess he was somewhere in the 140 to 150 range. The final score was 5 to 4 in ten innings, we left 8 stranded and the kid pitched nine innings in EARLY April and wanted to pitch the tenth.

 

This Is INSANE.

Pitch counts per game are important; but also pitch counts per week and per season. Rest days between pitching are also important. The American Institute of Sports Medicine also advocates "active rest" in the off-season--taking the time where a pitcher is not pitching.