Reds at Brewers (6/20-6/22)

[Voice of Reason]

The way the Reds have pitched the Brewers makes me wonder if the scouting report said they will swing at pitches out of the zone. Everyone seems afraid to throw strikes.

[MJAlltheWay24]

Didn't get to see any of the game today with the FCC game. Let's get tomorrow's game, which may be tough and I'll gladly take a 3-1 series against the Brewers.

[MJAlltheWay24]

Finish off this series with a win today and I feel like you can say it was the most successful week of the season.

[Voice of Reason]

I'm of the opinion that Joey is done. He just doesn't produce anymore. I'm hoping he proves me wrong, but he's not even close to the player he was. I'm hoping he's a proud man, and won't try to play out his contract.

 

@sumoroyal

 

I believe we have to make a paradigm shift on Votto. He is not the #3 RBI man with some power. If we focus on Votto as that guy, yes he is done. If we are honest, he really never was a HR hitter. He has two years in his career with 30+ HR's. His value has always been more about being the modern sabermetric prototype hitter with the ultimate height of value based on getting on base. If we use that definition, he still is valuable.

 

Before I go into his value, we have to forget about his salary. That has nothing to do with this discussion. If we are basing his value on earning his current salary, no one is going to argue with you. That isn't the way baseball salaries work. Almost all star players get overpaid in the later years of their contracts. Last year Albert Pujols made $25 million while hitting .245 with 19 HR. That's the way it works in baseball salary world. Owners get to underpay players early in their careers, and overpay their stars at the end of their careers. So let's forget about salary in this discussion. Let's focus on whether Votto brings value to the every day lineup at this point in his career.

 

What brought this post up for me was looking at this morning's Reds stats. Votto's power and RBI stats are bad. No doubt. He also is #4 on the Reds in AVG. He is #2 on the Reds in OBP. If you say so what, the Reds hitting stinks, Votto is #38 in the NL on OBP among hitters with 200+ AB's. He is right at #25 in OBP over the past month. He looks to be in one of his heating up runs. He has raised his AVG 40 points over the past month. He is heating up. As it stands now if his year end stats are similar to where they are right now, he has value as a #2 or even a leadoff hitter. One of the most important things in a good offensive lineup is a leadoff hitter who gets on base. That drives an offense. I would put a top notch #3 hitter as most important and then a leadoff hitter who gets on base just behind that as the second most important thing in a team's offense. With Senzel being a rookie, I am good with Votto at #2 in the order to protect him, even though Votto's OBP is better than Senzel's (yes, that's right, Votto's OBP is better than Senzel's).

 

No, Votto is not done. His role is different. He is now the guy getting on base for the RBI men. He is still a top performer in that role and he is a valuable part of the Reds current every day lineup.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Voice of Reason

[sumoroyal]

So VOR, You agree with what I have been saying this whole year. His only stats are AVG. and OBP and they are not going to suffer do his his high rising strikeout totals which many are looking right down the middle. It is tough to compare Votto to Senzil who is a rookie. He still has a little valve but he is closer to being done than being an All Star which he should not have been last year. Glad to see yo come around VOR. By the end of the year there will be a lot more agree with me.

[Voice of Reason]

So VOR, You agree with what I have been saying this whole year. His only stats are AVG. and OBP and they are not going to suffer do his his high rising strikeout totals which many are looking right down the middle. It is tough to compare Votto to Senzil who is a rookie. He still has a little valve but he is closer to being done than being an All Star which he should not have been last year. Glad to see yo come around VOR. By the end of the year there will be a lot more agree with me.

 

So you agree Votto is a valuable hitter in the lineup?

 

By the way, I forgot to mention Votto is second on the team in runs, 1 behind Suarez.

[sumoroyal]

Votto hits a three run Home run. His first with runners on base but Reds still down 7-3.

[sumoroyal]

So you agree Votto is a valuable hitter in the lineup? And

 

By the way, I forgot to mention Votto is second on the team in runs, 1 behind Suarez.

 

Yes, I think Votto has to be successful for the Reds to be successful. Votto being second in runs scored, it that a reflection on Votto or the others players? Votto strikes out less and he bats first is second, Votto will be valuable. But it will be Avg, OBP and runs scored and not HR and RBI'S. And I hope I am wrong.

[futurecoach]

Yes, I think Votto has to be successful for the Reds to be successful. Votto being second in runs scored, it that a reflection on Votto or the others players? Votto strikes out less and he bats first is second, Votto will be valuable. But it will be Avg, OBP and runs scored and not HR and RBI'S. And I hope I am wrong.

 

Which if by the end of the year Votto leads the team in average, obp, and runs scored that means he did a very good job for this offense. And all the constant never ending Criticism of him by you was very pointless.

[Voice of Reason]

Yes, I think Votto has to be successful for the Reds to be successful. Votto being second in runs scored, it that a reflection on Votto or the others players? Votto strikes out less and he bats first is second, Votto will be valuable. But it will be Avg, OBP and runs scored and not HR and RBI'S. And I hope I am wrong.

 

Votto being second in runs is because of his ability to get on base. The better you are at getting on base, the more opportunities the guys behind you get to drive you in. Yes, someone has to drive Votto in, but he has to get on base too.

[futurecoach]

Votto being second in runs is because of his ability to get on base. The better you are at getting on base, the more opportunities the guys behind you get to drive you in. Yes, someone has to drive Votto in, but he has to get on base too.

 

All the people obsessed with RBI totals. Seem to forget for people to get RBIs there needs to people on base usually. You need guys on a team who has a good average, obp, because that means they are not getting out. Which means they can score runs, and gives other people a chance to get the RBIs. Votto is definitely very valuable to this offense in that role. If people just learn to accept that as his value for this offense now, maybe people will stop complaining. Which I guess was the point of your post.

[sumoroyal]

Which if by the end of the year Votto leads the team in average, obp, and runs scored that means he did a very good job for this offense. And all the constant never ending Criticism of him by you was very pointless.

 

My criticism of Votto was well earned as he hit .200 for the first two months with 5 HR and 10 RBI. Striking out at an alarming rate and not getting walks. In June, he has been much better.

[futurecoach]

My criticism of Votto was well earned as he hit .200 for the first two months with 5 HR and 10 RBI. Striking out at an alarming rate and not getting walks. In June, he has been much better.

 

Which you also added he was done, he isn't coming out of it and all that. Which a few times I has to remind you, that he has always been a slow starter. So your overreacting to his normal slow start, was for no reason. Because even with that slow start he is one of the best on the team in Avg., obp, and runs scored. With chances are he will once again lead the team in those areas once the season ends. So yeah was over the top criticism that you directed straight toward him like every single at bat, because at the end of the day he once again most likely will have been one of the most valuable hitters in the lineup.

[Jumper_Dad]

Who is up next in the thread starting rotation?

[futurecoach]

Who is up next in the thread starting rotation?

 

I think it may be me, but I don't want to jump the gun in case I'm wrong.