Death penalty

[GrantNKY]

Death Penalty Still Permissible For People Who Drive Slowly In The Left Lane, Pope Francis Clarifies

 

VATICAN CITY—Following his recent announcement that the Catholic Church no longer supports the use of the death penalty, Pope Francis clarified that it may still be applied to slow left-lane drivers. “It almost goes without saying,” the leader of the Church commented.

 

Whereas prior Church teaching allowed the death penalty in certain cases, the Catechism now teaches that the punishment is always impermissible. “Except,” said a Vatican spokesman, “for those reprobate souls who just hang out in the left lane as if nobody else has anywhere to be.”

:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

[oldgrappler]

The way this is written it appears to be for political power over the population by the use of religious doctrine. That’s why some people feel the Bible is written by mortal men for political reasons and power. I don’t know, but verses like this sure make it appear that way. Men saying whoever rebels against those in authority will bring God’s wrath, well....that’s pretty self serving and handy. The ancient Pharaohs did very well in their own religion using these same methods. Built a few nice Pyramids from the labor of the those that didn’t have a direct message connecting them to the gods.

 

I can't speak for other religions but as for Christianity, Paul's statement in Romans 13 can NOT be interpreted as self-serving because it was written by someone who suffered at the hands of the government at the time and not by someone who was wielding the power of government on his own behalf or people he identified with. Paul would be executed by that same Roman government, as were many other Christians of the day and in the immediately succeeding centuries. Neither was Paul naive in believing that governments were always just. He lived during a time of Roman oppression. However, he was able to benefit from the rule of law on certain occasions when he asserted his rights as a Roman citizen. He saw that even pagan governments generally promoted the good and punished evil. I believe that God instituted the death penalty and has not revoked it. The John 8 story is not about capital punishment and is not prescriptive in its purpose regarding capital punishment.

 

But rather than argue positively for the death penalty, my point is only that you can't easily dismiss this injunction by Paul to obey the authorities because they are given their sphere of authority by God in order to promote the good and punish evil. They wield the sword to do this very thing and when they do so in fulfillment of this purpose, they are doing something good. Of course they don't always get it right and very often get it wrong. That is why we don't look to humans ultimately, but to God. Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord. Judgment Day is coming, after all, and we will all stand before the Righteous Judge. Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 

I am guilty of breaking God's Law and therefore am deserving of God's wrath and condemnation. If it were not for one thing, that would be my end. But God sent His Son to die as an atoning sacrifice for my sins (and yours), thereby turning away God's wrath and granting His gift of righteousness to anyone who believes. Romans 3:19-26. My end will be different than I deserve. That is only by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Colonels_Wear_Blue]

Excellent response. But I think there are a couple of points when reading the verses. In verse six it says that the Pharisees were attempting to trap Jesus in order to accuse him. If Jesus said "Kill her!" they could accuse him of being violent and if he said "Let her go" then he would be accused of breaking the the law.

 

The issue in my mind is there claim that the Law of Moses requires her to be stoned. No where in the Bible does it say a woman caught in adultery has to be stoned. It does say she has to be executed, but there has to be multiple witnesses cathcing her in the act and their has to be a trial. Also, the man she was committing adultery with also has to be held accountable.

I love you post though. I was not prepared for it and it caught me off guard.

 

Okay, okay. So it said executed and not stoned. I'll acknowledge that as the person who claimed that Mosaic law required that the adulteress be stoned.

[PP1]

Okay, okay. So it said executed and not stoned. I'll acknowledge that as the person who claimed that Mosaic law required that the adulteress be stoned.

 

So if Jesus agreed with them, then they could have accused him of misrepresenting the Law. The whole point of this drama is the Pharisees were trying to trick him. He found a way to not be tricked without violating the law.

[Colonels_Wear_Blue]

So the OVERWHELMING majority of executions in the United States, and I'd assume to say even in the world, are handed out to murderers.

 

So right in the Bible, we've got Cain killing his brother Abel. God doesn't kill Cain as punishment. In fact, God specifically puts a mark on Cain to make sure that no one will ever try to kill him as a punishment for what he did.

 

Then you've also got Moses. He killed an Egyptian guard. (I'd also note that the Egyptians had authority over the Hebrews, so speaking technically here, Moses killed a governing authority, and we all know that the Bible says, "whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted" so Moses would seem to be in REAL trouble there.) Pharoah wanted to exact revenge on it Moses for killing his guard, but instead, Moses took flight and God delivered him safely to Midian, where Reuel gifted Moses with his first wife, who bore Moses' first son. So God seems to take pity on a murderer once again. He even has that murderer lead His chosen people out of Egyptian oppression to the Promised Land.

[Hatz]

So the OVERWHELMING majority of executions in the United States, and I'd assume to say even in the world, are handed out to murderers.

 

So right in the Bible, we've got Cain killing his brother Abel. God doesn't kill Cain as punishment. In fact, God specifically puts a mark on Cain to make sure that no one will ever try to kill him as a punishment for what he did.

 

Then you've also got Moses. He killed an Egyptian guard. (I'd also note that the Egyptians had authority over the Hebrews, so speaking technically here, Moses killed a governing authority, and we all know that the Bible says, "whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted" so Moses would seem to be in REAL trouble there.) Pharoah wanted to exact revenge on it Moses for killing his guard, but instead, Moses took flight and God delivered him safely to Midian, where Reuel gifted Moses with his first wife, who bore Moses' first son. So God seems to take pity on a murderer once again. He even has that murderer lead His chosen people out of Egyptian oppression to the Promised Land.

 

Of course we won't mention Absalom, David's Son, is spared by the government from capital punishment after killing Amnon.

 

And what about David? Why was he not given the Death Penalty for the Uriah "hit?"

 

So was Jesus talking hyperbole in the Sermon on the Mount when he told his followers not to take "eye for an eye?"

 

I have felt that capital punishment is less about justice and more about revenge in its execution and the way in which it seems to be sentenced out to the population.

 

For me, as a believer, I have a hard time justifying the calculated killing of any individual. I even still have issues with the fact I was in a head on collision with a lady who literally went over the yellow line right at me and died from the accident. I had no way to get out of the situation and there is no "fault" to my actions but it still bothers me.

[Randy Parker]

So the OVERWHELMING majority of executions in the United States, and I'd assume to say even in the world, are handed out to murderers.

 

So right in the Bible, we've got Cain killing his brother Abel. God doesn't kill Cain as punishment. In fact, God specifically puts a mark on Cain to make sure that no one will ever try to kill him as a punishment for what he did.

 

Then you've also got Moses. He killed an Egyptian guard. (I'd also note that the Egyptians had authority over the Hebrews, so speaking technically here, Moses killed a governing authority, and we all know that the Bible says, "whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted" so Moses would seem to be in REAL trouble there.) Pharoah wanted to exact revenge on it Moses for killing his guard, but instead, Moses took flight and God delivered him safely to Midian, where Reuel gifted Moses with his first wife, who bore Moses' first son. So God seems to take pity on a murderer once again. He even has that murderer lead His chosen people out of Egyptian oppression to the Promised Land.

 

And yet there are just as many, if not more instances, where God puts people to death. And sometimes for things other than the taking of life (the guy picking up sticks on the Sabbath in Numbers, Uzzah touching the ark of the covenant, an angel striking Herod so that he's eaten by worms & dies, Ananias & Sapphira). And it's clear that the idea of capital punishment as law originates with God's law given to Israel.

 

Having said that, I don't believe the New Testament supports or condemns capital punishment. I used to argue in favor of it, but I believe my thinking was skewed. It seems to me that God does not give many New Testament specifications regarding lawbreaking for one reason: His people under the New Covenant are not restricted to one particular nation-state, whereas under the Old Covenant God's people consisted of one nation-state (Israel). God's people Israel were one nation and one government. God's people the church are in many nations under many different governments.

 

I think that's why most New Testament disciplinary instructions are given to the church & not to specific governments.

 

Just my two cents.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Randy Parker

[Colonels_Wear_Blue]

And yet there are just as many, if not more instances, where God puts people to death. And sometimes for things other than the taking of life (the guy picking up sticks on the Sabbath in Numbers, Uzzah touching the ark of the covenant, an angel striking Herod so that he's eaten by worms & dies, Ananias & Sapphira). And it's clear that the idea of capital punishment as law originates with God's law given to Israel.

 

Having said that, I don't believe the New Testament supports or condemns capital punishment. I used to argue in favor of it, but I believe my thinking was skewed. It seems to me that God does not give many New Testament specifications regarding lawbreaking for one reason: His people under the New Covenant are not restricted to one particular nation-state, whereas under the Old Covenant God's people consisted of one nation-state (Israel). God's people Israel were one nation and one government. God's people the church are in many nations under many different governments.

 

I think that's why most New Testament disciplinary instructions are given to the church & not to specific governments.

 

Just my two cents.

 

I think my biggest takeaway is that life or death is not for us to decide. Even God, the Judge over all judges, does not have a clear and fast rule - known to us, at least - for when and where execution is deserved as a punishment. The Bible abounds with passages that appear contrary to others.

 

Only God can see to someone's heart and only God can know the complete truth. If God wants someone to die, then I'll let Him take care of making that happen.

 

When it comes down to it, it's 100% my true belief that if I was to sit down and have a conversation with God or Jesus about someone's gravest sins, I think the conversation would be absolutely dominated about penitence, forgiveness, redemption, and salvation rather than vengeance and punishment.

[Randy Parker]

Even God, the Judge over all judges, does not have a clear and fast rule - known to us, at least - for when and where execution is deserved as a punishment.

 

Agreed

[Randy Parker]

But I do think slow left lane drivers should be put down.

[Hatz]

But I do think slow left lane drivers should be put down.

 

With extreme Prejudice. :thumb:

[Randy Parker]

With extreme Prejudice. :thumb:

 

:lol2::thumb:

[kygirl]

I think my biggest takeaway is that life or death is not for us to decide. Even God, the Judge over all judges, does not have a clear and fast rule - known to us, at least - for when and where execution is deserved as a punishment. The Bible abounds with passages that appear contrary to others.

 

Only God can see to someone's heart and only God can know the complete truth. If God wants someone to die, then I'll let Him take care of making that happen.

 

When it comes down to it, it's 100% my true belief that if I was to sit down and have a conversation with God or Jesus about someone's gravest sins, I think the conversation would be absolutely dominated about penitence, forgiveness, redemption, and salvation rather than vengeance and punishment.

 

Excellent post! Thank you for your insight!