Chris Heisey or Drew Stubbs: Who Is Better in CF for the Cincinnati Reds?

[AverageJoesGym]

Heisey has about 1/5 the amount of at bats hitting in front of Votto that Stubbs has so you really can't compare the two very well right now...Heisey hasn't had a large enough sample size this year hitting 2nd and playing everyday...All things considered Heisey still has a better overall AVG and SLG % than Stubbs this year even without the chance to inflate his numbers hitting 143x's in front of Votto...Before the move to 2nd Stubbs was hitting close to .175 I believe... Heisey has still managed a .270 AVG this year without the help of hitting in front of Votto...And the season OBP of both are a wash right now, virtually identical...

 

Also, after two weeks of hitting in front of Votto you were praising Stubbs. Do I need to read what you said back you? Remember when I said it was just a hot streak and the BABIP would even out? It did didn't it? Heisey is an exceptional bench player and a mediocre starter. With the putrid bench that the Reds have use him where he is most valuable.

[AverageJoesGym]

Excelling off the bench is one of the Harder things to do in baseball, I believe he can hit everyday if given a legit chance to get things going...You don't just come off the bench and hit .325 in your career if you have no idea what you are doing at the dish...That being said he isn't going to produce at the same clip starting but even if he finishes the year around .270 where he is now, that's better than what Stubbs gives you...Over the last 30 days Heisey has gotten plenty of playing time/starts and is the Reds second best hitter over that time other than Votto, Heisey started out really slow splitting out in LF with Ludwick and in the beginning only getting starts vs RHP...It's hard to get going in a platoon role...The crazy thing is Heisey even with a .240 AVG as a starter still sports a Higher AVG than the everyday starter in Stubbs...

 

We agree to disagree on mostly this entire topic...I'm not sure that no matter what combination plays in the OF that it's going to make a huge difference on the Reds final W/L Record...However I cannot stand watching Drew Stubbs and IMO his wasted abilities, I had very High hopes for him when he came up for Taveras a few years ago but he is aging now and I am giving up on him...He would still look way better out there than Ludwick though if we could see both Stubbs and Heisey on a pretty consistent basis...Gives the Reds more speed in the OF and on the bases and both Stubbs and Heisey are a significant improvement over Ludwick in the AVG Department...

 

So you just refuse to answer my above questions? Typical.

[AverageJoesGym]

And Heisey would certainly not be the first player to be better off the bench than as a starter. You are trying to make an exceptional bench player and a mediocre starter into a mediocre starter and a mediocre bench player. You are gaining nothing.

[nkufan23]

I'm going to ask this one more time and I promise that I will talking real slow for you. I have two questions.

 

1. What is the batting average of Chris Heisey this season when hitting second? Also, what is his OBP hitting second? For a bonus include his career numbers in that spot.

 

2. What is Chris Heisey's OBP this year?

 

Now please answer those questions. You seem to be trying to avoid them.

 

Are you for real man, the stats in the 2nd spot are pretty irrelevant due to Stubbs having more chances hitting in front of the MVP and I have already said that Stubbs has done better there in his career but I don't care due to him having more chances there...Just to make you happy I will post them right now though...

 

First I will say that Heisey's OBP this year is identical, Heisey is at .296 without hitting 4x's more in front of Votto...Stubbs has an OBP of just .4 points higher at .300 in almost 4x's more the at bats in front of Votto...I would think that says something in itself that Heisey has almost an identical OBP while splitting time all year and hitting down in the order...Heisey's OBP would be way higher if he had 4x's more at bats in front of Votto right now wouldn't it, considering it's about the same right now without Votto's protection...

 

In 7 GMs or 30 AB's hitting 2nd Heisey is batting .233 with an OBP of .258...In 36 GMs or 143 AB's hitting 2nd Stubbs is batting .280 with an .348 OBP...Given that Heisey has had 4x's less at bats there than Stubbs this doesn't concern me one bit, it isn't fair to compare the two at this point...One bad game there can kill Heisey's numbers or one more good game there could put him right up there with Stubbs...

 

In their careers in 21 GMs or 84 AB's hitting 2nd Heisey is batting .235 with an OBP of .295...In 48 GMs or 189 AB's hitting 2nd Stubbs is batting .291 with an .363 OBP...Again Stubbs still has 2x's more chances there all it would take is 3 bad games by Stubbs and 3 good games by Heisey and their numbers would be identical...

 

I have no reason to think that Heisey wouldn't at least be as good as Stubbs hitting second given that his career AVG and SLG numbers in general are better than those of Stubbs even without the benefit of batting in front of Votto...Drop Stubbs numbers in front of Votto and his career numbers become atrocious...

Edited June 13, 2012 by nkufan23

[nkufan23]

Also, after two weeks of hitting in front of Votto you were praising Stubbs. Do I need to read what you said back you? Remember when I said it was just a hot streak and the BABIP would even out? It did didn't it? Heisey is an exceptional bench player and a mediocre starter. With the putrid bench that the Reds have use him where he is most valuable.

 

I already pointed out that post myself I said Stubbs has speed, strikes out a ton and doesn't make a whole lot of contact so if putting him in Votto is what it takes to inflate his numbers than that's what it takes...And his numbers have certainly been inflated since being moved in front of Votto...Stubbs has no ability to take pitches and work counts, if he gets behind he is all but done...Being in front of Votto is the only way that Stubbs has ever been productive because Dusty said it himself he is getting first pitch fastballs to hit...It's pretty sad that a player can only be productive at one spot in an order and that's hitting in front of one of the best in the game...Stubbs hits .243 in his career outside of the 2 spot, Heisey hits .260 in his career outside the 2 spot...

Edited June 13, 2012 by nkufan23

[westsider]

That trade was very close to going down as was Heisey for Jurrjens...Heisey has always been the odd man out and has almost been traded a couple of times...It doesn't matter what website I sited, the numbers don't lie and the Television set/Attending Games in person don't lie...Stubbs is one of the more disappointing players in the league...

How do you know the trade was "close to going down?" Did anyone else report it?

 

The problem with these websites and blogs is that they can make claims and report anything, and some people will think they're actually credible just because they have a website.

 

Both the Cubs and Braves would have been foolish to make those deals ... I suspect neither of then was as close to fruition as some would like to think.

[nkufan23]

How do you know the trade was "close to going down?" Did anyone else report it?

 

The problem with these websites and blogs is that they can make claims and report anything, and some people will think they're actually credible just because they have a website.

 

Both the Cubs and Braves would have been foolish to make those deals ... I suspect neither of then was as close to fruition as some would like to think.

 

Both of them were also being reported on mlbtraderumors.com which is reputable and usually right on...I can't find the Marmol Trade Rumor on there anymore but the Jurrjens one is still over there...

 

Report: Reds almost dealt Heisey to Braves | Unsportsmanlike Conduct

 

Chris Heisey Rumors: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

[nkufan23]

For comparison...Other guys hitting 2nd in front of Votto...I'm not even tired yet :jump:...I don't ever :isurrender: :lol:

Cozart is hitting .217/.259 hitting leadoff, when he hit's second this year he is hitting .354/.415...

 

Orlando Cabrera in 2010 hit .298/.333 batting 2nd...Everywhere else that year he hit around .230/.275...In his career .272/.317...

 

Phillips has had a ton of success in his career hitting second he has hit .306/.364 in 2010 and .292/.336 in 2011...He is a career .272/.321 guy...

[AverageJoesGym]

For comparison...Other guys hitting 2nd in front of Votto...I'm not even tired yet :jump:...I don't ever :isurrender: :lol:

Cozart is hitting .217/.259 hitting leadoff, when he hit's second this year he is hitting .354/.415...

 

Orlando Cabrera in 2010 hit .298/.333 batting 2nd...Everywhere else that year he hit around .230/.275...In his career .272/.317...

 

Phillips has had a ton of success in his career hitting second he has hit .306/.364 in 2010 and .292/.336 in 2011...He is a career .272/.321 guy...

 

Again, Heisey is a very mediocre starter. Why take someone who is a weapon off of the bench and start them for at best a marginal improvement offensively--and I don't think he is any better than Stubbs as a starter.

[westsider]

Both of them were also being reported on mlbtraderumors.com which is reputable and usually right on...I can't find the Marmol Trade Rumor on there anymore but the Jurrjens one is still over there...

 

Report: Reds almost dealt Heisey to Braves | Unsportsmanlike Conduct

 

Chris Heisey Rumors: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

The MLB Trade Rumors report was simply a link to the original report. And there was only one report.

 

Frankly, I don't believe it. The Braves would have been stupid to do it. Neither Heisey nor Francisco is an everyday player.

[UKMustangFan]

^Not to mention Jurrjens is middling around in the minors. Yeah, Heisey's so good he was almost dealt for a minor leaguer! Yay! :lol:

[HammerTime]

Let's see...

 

Career Stats

 

BA - Stubbs : .249 Heisey: .258

OBP - Stubbs : .322 Heisey: .313

SLG - Stubbs:.373 Heisey:.440

At Bats per RBI - Stubbs: 9.6 Heisey: 7.7

At Bats per HR - Stubbs: 28 Heisey: 26

Strikeout Rate - Stubbs: Every 3.1 at bats Heisey: Every 3.7 at bats

RISP - Stubbs: .216 .310 .329 .704 Heisey: .245 .306. .351 .657

 

Defensive edge given to Stubbs slightly and he is has a huge edge in SB. I'd say all in all they are about the same player so it hardly matters.

[westsider]

Let's see...

 

Career Stats

 

BA - Stubbs : .249 Heisey: .258

OBP - Stubbs : .322 Heisey: .313

SLG - Stubbs:.373 Heisey:.440

At Bats per RBI - Stubbs: 9.6 Heisey: 7.7

At Bats per HR - Stubbs: 28 Heisey: 26

Strikeout Rate - Stubbs: Every 3.1 at bats Heisey: Every 3.7 at bats

RISP - Stubbs: .216 .310 .329 .704 Heisey: .245 .306. .351 .657

 

Defensive edge given to Stubbs slightly and he is has a huge edge in SB. I'd say all in all they are about the same player so it hardly matters.

Two advantages to Stubbs ... defense and the fact that his stats are as an everyday player. Heisey's numbers have been put up in spot duty, with no guarantee he could sustain it as a regular.

[westsider]

^Not to mention Jurrjens is middling around in the minors. Yeah, Heisey's so good he was almost dealt for a minor leaguer! Yay! :lol:

During the offseason, Jurrjens was coming off four seasons with the Braves in which he averaged 12 wins with a 3.34 ERA in 168 innings per season. A pitcher with that track record has some value, and it is certainly more than Heisey and Francisco.

[HammerTime]

Two advantages to Stubbs ... defense and the fact that his stats are as an everyday player. Heisey's numbers have been put up in spot duty, with no guarantee he could sustain it as a regular.

 

Agreed but it's a very slight edge IMO. Considering all that I take the faster guy 100 out of 100 times.