Some more numbers for you Clyde Not that it matters I just find them interesting, numbers don't matter at all...

 

Heisey is hitting .303 over his last 30 days...

Stubbs is hitting .215 over his last 30 days...

 

Heisey with runners on is hitting .315 in 73 AB's

Stubbs with runners on is hitting .162 in 68 AB's

 

Heisey with RISP is hitting .275 in 40 AB's

Stubbs with RISP is hitting .200 in 40 AB's

 

Heisey with RISP 2 outs is hitting .304 in 23 AB's

Stubbs with RISP 2 outs is hitting .222 in 18 AB's

 

On the bright side

Heisey with Bases Empty is hitting .220 in 82 AB's

Stubbs with Bases Empty is hitting .272 in 136 AB's...Also 5 of his 7 total HR's have come with bases empty...

 

Weren't you the same person that just a month ago was just thrilled with Stubbs being moved to the two spot? I can go back and quote you if you want.

Weren't you the same person that just a month ago was just thrilled with Stubbs being moved to the two spot? I can go back and quote you if you want.

 

I'm not going to deny that and his numbers still prove to be better than Heisey's in the 2 spot only he has had more than Double the opportunities to play everyday there in front of Votto...I don't need your help AJG I got his, start bringing something to the table instead of calling people out or agreeing with people...What is your own opinion I never hear it, do you even watch the games? My opinion on Stubbs is that he isn't as good as Heisey, I have always thought Heisey deserved more of a shot but I also know better than Dusty doing that on his own without an injury occurring to either Stubbs/Ludwick/Bruce...

 

Heisey wasn't in the picture as the everyday starting CF back then, In the past week I have realized how much I really appreciate someone other than Stubbs in CF and hitting 2nd in the order...Stubbs is great in situations that don't matter...His numbers lead people to believe that he is way better and more valuable than he really is...At the time that I said Stubbs looked good in front of Votto that was about a week into the experiment of Stubbs hitting there, I quoted passages that proved he was more comfortable and he said it himself that it allows him to see better pitches...I was also the first person to say that I would hit Hanigan up in the order in an important role somewhere, I got blasted for that at the time as well...

 

Nobody says that a person can't change over the course of the month, my opinion at the time was if the 2 spot is the only place Stubbs can hit because of Votto's protection than leave him there rather than hitting him anywhere else in which he always sucks bad...If Stubbs was going to play I wanted him to play somewhere that he could be most productive even if it was only due to him being protected by Votto...My opinion on Stubbs has never changed he is very fast, very overrated in the field and very overrated as a hitter unless you look at his inflated stats batting 2nd and all of the damage he does with no one on base...I'd rather have Heisey hitting 2nd because I feel if he played everyday with at bats there he would have a much higher AVG than he has there now...Not only that but after the 1st inning I am more worried about hitting with RISP in the 2 spot than I am overall average in that spot and not only is Heisey way better than Stubbs with RISP but he is also about a .40's better of a hitter overall this year...

 

Give Heisey the at bats of Stubbs and he is a better overall player than Stubbs hands down IMO...All Stubbs has on him is overall speed...

Edited June 13, 201214 yr by nkufan23

I'm not going to deny that and his numbers still prove to be better than Heisey's in the 2 spot only he has had more than Double the opportunities to play everyday there in front of Votto...I don't need your help AJG I got his, start bringing something to the table instead of calling people out or agreeing with people...What is your own opinion I never hear it, do you even watch the games? My opinion on Stubbs is that he isn't as good as Heisey, I have always thought Heisey deserved more of a shot but I also know better than Dusty doing that on his own without an injury occurring to either Stubbs/Ludwick/Bruce...

 

Heisey wasn't in the picture as the everyday starting CF back then, In the past week I have realized how much I really appreciate someone other than Stubbs in CF and hitting 2nd in the order...Stubbs is great in situations that don't matter...His numbers lead people to believe that he is way better and more valuable than he really is...At the time that I said Stubbs looked good in front of Votto that was about a week into the experiment of Stubbs hitting there, I quoted passages that proved he was more comfortable and he said it himself that it allows him to see better pitches...I was also the first person to say that I would hit Hanigan up in the order in an important role somewhere, I got blasted for that at the time as well...

 

Nobody says that a person can't change over the course of the month, my opinion at the time was if the 2 spot is the only place Stubbs can hit because of Votto's protection than leave him there rather than hitting him anywhere else in which he always sucks bad...If Stubbs was going to play I wanted him to play somewhere that he could be most productive even if it was only due to him being protected by Votto...My opinion on Stubbs has never changed he is very fast, very overrated in the field and very overrated as a hitter unless you look at his inflated stats batting 2nd and all of the damage he does with no one on base...I'd rather have Heisey hitting 2nd because I feel if he played everyday with at bats there he would have a much higher AVG than he has there now...Not only that but after the 1st inning I am more worried about hitting with RISP in the 2 spot than I am overall average in that spot and not only is Heisey way better than Stubbs with RISP but he is also about a .40's better of a hitter overall this year...

 

Give Heisey the at bats of Stubbs and he is a better overall player than Stubbs hands down IMO...All Stubbs has on him is overall speed...

 

You can't just pick the numbers that suit you. You want to quote Heisey's average with RISP. What is his average and OBP hitting second? What is his season OBP? That is a big deal hitting in front of Votto.

If you want my batting order here it is:

1. Phillips

2. Hanigan

3. Votto

4. Bruce

5. Frazier

6. Heisey/Ludwick

7. Stubbs

8. Cozart

Here is what you are thinking about AJG,

Originally posted by Spindoc

Cozart makes contact frequently. I'm not saying he can't hit with more power, but he hasn't. He's not a prototypical middle of the lineup guy. I know you're enamored with numbers, and maybe they can be manipulated to seem that he could fill that role. However, with the eyeball, he's a top of the order guy. Table setter for Votto. Needs to stay at the top for that reason, either in the 1 or 2 hole. Stubbs, while he's been solid in the 2 spot, doesn't fit that role if you look at the back of his baseball card. I hope he continues to succeed in that spot, but I have a feeling we will see a swoon from him there soon. Stubbs is more suited for the middle of the order than Cozart in my statistically void opinion.

 

Originally posted by me,

As long as the Reds don't trade for a lead off hitter it obviously don't matter...It will be Cozart, Stubbs all year...However if the Reds traded for a leadoff hitter I would rather Stubbs bat 2 than Cozart...Stubbs is prone to striking out, he has good power and speed but doesn't make contact...Do you wan't Stubbs striking out at the top with no one on or do you want him striking out hitting 6th with runners on base...Stubbs strikes out too much to be counted on to be a run producer hitting behind Votto, Phillips and Bruce...Cozart makes more contact and would make much more sense in that spot imo...Stubbs gets protected by Votto and thus sees pitches hitting 2 and if that's what it takes to inflate his production and get his speed on base then that's what it takes...I believe Cozart has a much better eye and is a much better Contact hitter and he will hit anywhere you put him, he doesn't need Votto behind him so he can get strikes to hit because he actually has a sense of plate discipline...

 

 

As you can see in a round about way I said that I think Stubbs sucks other than having good speed and also I said that he basically needed to hit in front of Votto to succeed and inflate his production...Not a whole lot has changed, I still feel the same way all though I'd like to see how much Heisey's numbers would inflate everyday batting 2nd in front of Votto...I think a lot of guys might look a lot better hitting in front of the best hitter in the game right now...My opinion is just that I value Heisey more as an everyday player than I do Stubbs...

 

I've said it before I'd rather they both play than Heisey and Ludwick everyday, but chances are it isn't going to happen...

Edited June 13, 201214 yr by nkufan23

You better watch out Nkufan23, if you keep this up you will be coming close to competiting with me for having the longest post's award. So if you keep this rate up, I may need to step may game up if I want to keep my award. It's been a while since I have had a long post.

This article although a little old now is exactly how I feel about Heisey vs Stubbs...

Chris Heisey or Drew Stubbs: Who Is Better in CF for the Cincinnati Reds? | Bleacher Report

Isn't this the same website that claimed a Heisey-for-Carlos Marmol trade was imminent sometime last season?

Also in regards to moving Hanigan up in the order AJG...

Originally posted by AverageJoesGym on 5/1

Even during a slump the opposing pitchers have to respect him. It isn't like he's going to suddenly become a .220 hitter. With his power they aren't just going to want to put Votto on to get to him, he's far too dangerous and no one knows when he's going to go on one of his hot streaks. I'd much rather have someone with his skill set in that spot than someone who is definitely not suited for it like Phillips.

 

Originally posted by me on 5/1

I agree I feel like Cozart, Phillips, Votto, Bruce, Hanigan/Mes, Rolen/Frazier, Stubbs, Ludwick/Heisey, Pitcher is the best lineup but we will probably never see it...

 

I never suggested Hanigan in the 2 spot however I did say that I would like Phillips there and Hanigan in a more important spot higher up than 8th...In this thread I have also said that if I had the choice I would still like Phillips hitting 2nd but with Dusty it's fairly obvious that isn't an option...In this lineup over a month ago I suggested moving Hanigan up to the 5th spot where his high average and OBP could have the chance to produce more runs, I was the first person to suggest moving Hanigan anywhere but 8th...I'm not trying to make stuff up I am fairly young still and not losing my mind I remember what I have said in the past...

You better watch out Nkufan23, if you keep this up you will be coming close to competiting with me for having the longest post's award. So if you keep this rate up, I may need to step may game up if I want to keep my award. It's been a while since I have had a long post.

 

I can debate all day long...I've also been known for not knowing when to shut up :lol:

Edited June 13, 201214 yr by nkufan23

Here is what you are thinking about AJG,

Originally posted by Spindoc

Cozart makes contact frequently. I'm not saying he can't hit with more power, but he hasn't. He's not a prototypical middle of the lineup guy. I know you're enamored with numbers, and maybe they can be manipulated to seem that he could fill that role. However, with the eyeball, he's a top of the order guy. Table setter for Votto. Needs to stay at the top for that reason, either in the 1 or 2 hole. Stubbs, while he's been solid in the 2 spot, doesn't fit that role if you look at the back of his baseball card. I hope he continues to succeed in that spot, but I have a feeling we will see a swoon from him there soon. Stubbs is more suited for the middle of the order than Cozart in my statistically void opinion.

 

Originally posted by me,

As long as the Reds don't trade for a lead off hitter it obviously don't matter...It will be Cozart, Stubbs all year...However if the Reds traded for a leadoff hitter I would rather Stubbs bat 2 than Cozart...Stubbs is prone to striking out, he has good power and speed but doesn't make contact...Do you wan't Stubbs striking out at the top with no one on or do you want him striking out hitting 6th with runners on base...Stubbs strikes out too much to be counted on to be a run producer hitting behind Votto, Phillips and Bruce...Cozart makes more contact and would make much more sense in that spot imo...Stubbs gets protected by Votto and thus sees pitches hitting 2 and if that's what it takes to inflate his production and get his speed on base then that's what it takes...I believe Cozart has a much better eye and is a much better Contact hitter and he will hit anywhere you put him, he doesn't need Votto behind him so he can get strikes to hit because he actually has a sense of plate discipline...

 

 

As you can see in a round about way I said that I think Stubbs sucks other than having good speed and also I said that he basically needed to hit in front of Votto to succeed and inflate his production...Not a whole lot has changed, I still feel the same way all the I'd like to see how much Heisey's numbers would inflate everyday batting 2nd in front of Votto...I think a lot of guys might look a lot better hitting in front of the best hitter in the game right now...My opinion is just that I value Heisey more as an everyday player than I do Stubbs...

 

I've said it before I'd rather they both play than Heisey and Ludwick everyday, but chances are it isn't going to happen...

 

 

Evidently you have a hard time reading, then comprehending, then answering questions. I asked: What is Heisey's OBP and BA hitting second? What is his overall OBP this season?

You can't just pick the numbers that suit you. You want to quote Heisey's average with RISP. What is his average and OBP hitting second? What is his season OBP? That is a big deal hitting in front of Votto.

 

Heisey has about 1/5 the amount of at bats hitting in front of Votto that Stubbs has so you really can't compare the two very well right now...Heisey hasn't had a large enough sample size this year hitting 2nd and playing everyday...All things considered Heisey still has a better overall AVG and SLG % than Stubbs this year even without the chance to inflate his numbers hitting 143x's in front of Votto...Before the move to 2nd Stubbs was hitting close to .175 I believe... Heisey has still managed a .270 AVG this year without the help of hitting in front of Votto...And the season OBP of both are a wash right now, virtually identical...

Also there is this: Heisey as a starter is a .240 hitter with a .296. OBP. Off the bench he is a .325 hitter with a .363 OBP. So why would you take a player that is a genuine weapon off the bench and make a below average starter out of him? He has done nothing to show that he is a better everyday player than Stubbs yet he has proven to be a great bench player. Why not keep him where he excells?

Isn't this the same website that claimed a Heisey-for-Carlos Marmol trade was imminent sometime last season?

 

That trade was very close to going down as was Heisey for Jurrjens...Heisey has always been the odd man out and has almost been traded a couple of times...It doesn't matter what website I sited, the numbers don't lie and the Television set/Attending Games in person don't lie...Stubbs is one of the more disappointing players in the league...

Heisey has about 1/5 the amount of at bats hitting in front of Votto that Stubbs has so you really can't compare the two very well right now...Heisey hasn't had a large enough sample size this year hitting 2nd and playing everyday...All things considered Heisey still has a better overall AVG and SLG % than Stubbs this year even without the chance to inflate his numbers hitting 143x's in front of Votto...Before the move to 2nd Stubbs was hitting close to .175 I believe... Heisey has still managed a .270 AVG this year without the help of hitting in front of Votto...And the season OBP of both are a wash right now, virtually identical...

 

I'm going to ask this one more time and I promise that I will talking real slow for you. I have two questions.

 

1. What is the batting average of Chris Heisey this season when hitting second? Also, what is his OBP hitting second? For a bonus include his career numbers in that spot.

 

2. What is Chris Heisey's OBP this year?

 

Now please answer those questions. You seem to be trying to avoid them.

Also there is this: Heisey as a starter is a .240 hitter with a .296. OBP. Off the bench he is a .325 hitter with a .363 OBP. So why would you take a player that is a genuine weapon off the bench and make a below average starter out of him? He has done nothing to show that he is a better everyday player than Stubbs yet he has proven to be a great bench player. Why not keep him where he excells?

 

Excelling off the bench is one of the Harder things to do in baseball, I believe he can hit everyday if given a legit chance to get things going...You don't just come off the bench and hit .325 in your career if you have no idea what you are doing at the dish...That being said he isn't going to produce at the same clip starting but even if he finishes the year around .270 where he is now, that's better than what Stubbs gives you...Over the last 30 days Heisey has gotten plenty of playing time/starts and is the Reds second best hitter over that time other than Votto, Heisey started out really slow splitting out in LF with Ludwick and in the beginning only getting starts vs RHP...It's hard to get going in a platoon role...The crazy thing is Heisey even with a .240 AVG as a starter still sports a Higher AVG than the everyday starter in Stubbs...

 

We agree to disagree on mostly this entire topic...I'm not sure that no matter what combination plays in the OF that it's going to make a huge difference on the Reds final W/L Record...However I cannot stand watching Drew Stubbs and IMO his wasted abilities, I had very High hopes for him when he came up for Taveras a few years ago but he is aging now and I am giving up on him...He would still look way better out there than Ludwick though if we could see both Stubbs and Heisey on a pretty consistent basis...Gives the Reds more speed in the OF and on the bases and both Stubbs and Heisey are a significant improvement over Ludwick in the AVG Department...