^Not to mention Jurrjens is middling around in the minors. Yeah, Heisey's so good he was almost dealt for a minor leaguer! Yay! :lol:

 

Before the start of this season, Jurrjens was a guy that many teams would have loved to have...He is still young enough to turn it around...My point was other teams have wanted him probably because they know that he is a potential starter for them while simply a spot guy for the Reds...The Braves wouldn't have considered sending a pitcher who before this year looked like a potential number 1 starter for a guy that is supposedly just a bench player in Heisey...

^Look at his splits off the bench vs. starting. He's perfect for the late innings, PH'er role. The everyday guy, not so much.

If Heisey had the opportunity that Stubbs had. The numbers would be better offensively and not as good defensively. Stubbs is obviously quicker but I wouldn't go as far and say that he's the better baseball player. Stubbs was a first round pick and Heisey was a 28th rounder (I think.) Looking at it that way I would say that Heisey has over achieved and Stubbs has under achieved.

If Heisey had the opportunity that Stubbs had. The numbers would be better offensively and not as good defensively. Stubbs is obviously quicker but I wouldn't go as far and say that he's the better baseball player. Stubbs was a first round pick and Heisey was a 28th rounder (I think.) Looking at it that way I would say that Heisey has over achieved and Stubbs has under achieved.

 

Numbers don't support that argument.

Numbers don't support that argument.

 

The reason for that is there major league opportunities have not been the same. Last year Heisey's power numbers were better than Stubbs. That was with inconsistent opportunities to play.

Stubbs gets the time because his defense is superior to Heisey's ... Heisey may have had a shot in CF in another organization, but it wasn't happening in Cincinnati and he doesn't hit enough to hold down a corner.

Stubbs gets the time because his defense is superior to Heisey's ... Heisey may have had a shot in CF in another organization, but it wasn't happening in Cincinnati and he doesn't hit enough to hold down a corner.

 

Have you been watching Heisey this week in center? Don't think it has hurt the Reds at all with him out there. The past year and a half hasn't been exactly a hitting exhibition by Stubbs...

Heisey is hitting .381avg/.391obp in his last five consecutive starts in CF...Since May 14th Heisey is batting .323avg/.347obp in 23 Starts + ONLY 1 Pinch Hit Appearance out of 28 total games the Reds have played during that time period...In that same stretch since May 14th Stubbs is batting .227avg/.318obp in 20 Starts...The both have started together in the same game in only 15 out of the 28 games...

Have you been watching Heisey this week in center? Don't think it has hurt the Reds at all with him out there. The past year and a half hasn't been exactly a hitting exhibition by Stubbs...

No one is claiming Stubbs has a significant offensive edge ...

Heisey is hitting .381avg/.391obp in his last five consecutive starts in CF...Since May 14th Heisey is batting .323avg/.347obp in 23 Starts + ONLY 1 Pinch Hit Appearance out of 28 total games the Reds have played during that time period...In that same stretch since May 14th Stubbs is batting .227avg/.318obp in 20 Starts...The both have started together in the same game in only 15 out of the 28 games...

And not too long ago, you were all over Stubbs finding nirvana in the #2 spot based on a couple of weeks' worth of at-bats ...

And not too long ago, you were all over Stubbs finding nirvana in the #2 spot based on a couple of weeks' worth of at-bats ...

 

I was on Stubbs because based on his career he was horrendous everywhere but the 2 spot at the time...He was having a terrible season up till the point of Dusty putting him in front of Votto to get him going and it worked, fwiw he is still having a terrible season but it would be even worse if Dusty never put him 2nd...If something is working at the time don't change it, Stubbs has still been good in the 2 spot but that doesn't make him a very good player because he is hitting in front of the best hitter in the game...My whole reasoning for liking Stubbs hitting 2nd at the time was that Dusty was going to play him everyday regardless of him hitting close to .200 so if he can raise his production just the slightest bit although inflated by being in front of Votto I was all for it...

 

Heisey was never an option at the time and never will be as long is Stubbs is healthy everyone knows that but that doesn't mean Stubbs is the better player...Anyways I hated Stubbs then and still do but if the 2 spot is the only place Stubbs can hit above .200 which is sad than I am all for it because I am a fan of the Reds and it makes them a better team...I still think Heisey is a much more complete player...If I had my choice of Stubbs or Heisey I take Heisey everyday but I don't have that choice so I will live with Stubbs in the 2 spot...

 

Once again this is the exact quote from me at the time (I have bolded the key words), "As long as the Reds don't trade for a lead off hitter it obviously don't matter...It will be Cozart, Stubbs all year...However if the Reds traded for a leadoff hitter I would rather Stubbs bat 2 than Cozart...Stubbs is prone to striking out, he has good power and speed but doesn't make contact...Do you wan't Stubbs striking out at the top with no one on or do you want him striking out hitting 6th with runners on base...Stubbs strikes out too much to be counted on to be a run producer hitting behind Votto, Phillips and Bruce...Cozart makes more contact and would make much more sense in that spot imo...Stubbs gets protected by Votto and thus sees pitches hitting 2 and if that's what it takes to inflate his production and get his speed on base then that's what it takes"

 

I nowhere say I am a huge fan of Stubbs, I actually knock him and say that he needs Votto behind him to succeed and the numbers still back it up...Dusty will play Stubbs everyday, I'm a fan of the Reds therefore if Stubbs is going to play I want him to succeed which means batting 2nd...

On May 10, you posted this:

 

"You do realize he has hit #2 for weeks now and the Reds are rolling and Stubbs is hitting as well as he ever has...What make Cozart a good #2 hitter? I love Cozart more than anyone on here but I would rather have Stubbs and his speed hitting second...If he puts it in play he has a chance to get on base, so wouod Revere thats what you want in front of Votto...Cozart can handle the 2 hole but I would rather see him down in the order after Bruce, I see him as more of a run producer and he is still young..."

 

Since then, Stubbs has gone 18-for-79 (.228) in the #2 spot in the order, so apparently the #2 spot wasn't the thing that was going to get Stubbs' bat going.

 

Bottom line, you're not a very knowledgable baseball fan, and you're especially not a very good judge of talent. You pounce on every hot streak and try to make it out to be something it isn't. You did it with Cozart last year, pronouncing him to be a potential impact bat for the Reds, and you do it routinely.

 

The Reds have had Stubbs and Heisey in their system for years. They apparently feel that Stubbs is the better centerfielder of the two, especially defensively, based on years of watching those guys at various levels, from the minors to the majors. Some of their defensive stats in the minors seem to bear that out.

The Reds have had Stubbs and Heisey in their system for years. They apparently feel that Stubbs is the better centerfielder of the two, especially defensively, based on years of watching those guys at various levels, from the minors to the majors. Some of their defensive stats in the minors seem to bear that out.

The back of their baseball cards read similar numbers for a reason. They are both average players and Stubbs gets the edge because of speed and defense.

On May 10, you posted this:

 

"You do realize he has hit #2 for weeks now and the Reds are rolling and Stubbs is hitting as well as he ever has...What make Cozart a good #2 hitter? I love Cozart more than anyone on here but I would rather have Stubbs and his speed hitting second...If he puts it in play he has a chance to get on base, so wouod Revere thats what you want in front of Votto...Cozart can handle the 2 hole but I would rather see him down in the order after Bruce, I see him as more of a run producer and he is still young..."

 

Since then, Stubbs has gone 18-for-79 (.228) in the #2 spot in the order, so apparently the #2 spot wasn't the thing that was going to get Stubbs' bat going.

 

Bottom line, you're not a very knowledgable baseball fan, and you're especially not a very good judge of talent. You pounce on every hot streak and try to make it out to be something it isn't. You did it with Cozart last year, pronouncing him to be a potential impact bat for the Reds, and you do it routinely.

 

The Reds have had Stubbs and Heisey in their system for years. They apparently feel that Stubbs is the better centerfielder of the two, especially defensively, based on years of watching those guys at various levels, from the minors to the majors. Some of their defensive stats in the minors seem to bear that out.

 

How is that quote any different than the one I have already provided...My stance never changed and still hasn't Stubbs is fast and that's all he has going for him other than Swinging for the fences every at bat and squaring it up here and there...You also realize all this talk was hypothetical and was taking into account putting Ben Revere or another lead-off bat in the Reds lineup...The bottom line is even with that avg you just posted Stubbs has still only succeeded in the 2 spot in his career with an average of .291 everywhere else he is around .250 or below...

 

Don't question my knowledge of baseball you don't know me at all...You pounce on every post you see and try to make it out and turn it around to be something it isn't...You consistently look to poke fun at people's posts and to make yourself look like some Baseball Guru...I have to question whether or not you even watch the Reds games or baseball at all, you seem to wear blinders when someone tries to make a positive point and praise someone or when someone mentions someone that could help the Reds...You look to turn positive posts into negatives...I may get overly excited about my hometown team but I am very knowledgeable about the game of baseball...You did it with Pierre, You have done it with Billy Hamilton, Josh Hamilton and many others...

 

I have never seen you ever give credit to any player you are always quick to point out their flaws, get on baseball reference and find some stat that makes your point valid and then act like you are the Schwab (which was one of my favorite shows)...Baseball Reference is a fine tool I use it all the time and I can tell by almost everyone's post on here they use it or something similar (thebaseballcube, fangraphs etc..) but don't just jump into every thread near the end and point out everyone's posts and why they are wrong and you are right...How bout posting in a thread every now and then with your opinion on a topic before everyone else does, instead of waiting for everyone else's opinion and quoting there post and pointing out it's flaws...Nothing tells me that you are any more knowledgeable of the game than anyone else on here, plus your a Cubs Fan so of course you don't get all excited about the Reds :lol:...

 

All this being said don't change your ways, I love debating with you on here and I really don't even know you or what you do so I shouldn't question your knowledge as you shouldn't mine...Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I enjoy hearing them and frequently learn new things on here and change my stance on certain topics/issues, which I probably shouldn't do because apparently your not aloud too :lol:

I'll put my record up against anyone's on here, nkufan23 ... I call it like I see them. Over the last few years, I've countered the hype on a lot of Reds' "prospects" (Dickerson, Keppinger, Rosales, Thompson, Stubbs, Alonso, Cozart, Frazier) and have usually been proven right.

 

I'm a baseball fan, period. I keep up with all 30 teams in some capacity, more than just any particular team. And if it seems like I go against the grain, it's because I'm not blinded by hype or loyalty to a certain team.