A Friend of mine who is an educator....

[rockmom]

To further clarify my statement above:

 

I want to go on record that I do not in ANY way think that school by school, every public school is underperforming. I believe though, that there are some definite needs of evaluation. I also, though, believe that as a whole, the American (not just KY) public schools need to be looked at, but not necessarily on the basis of curriculum. I believe that we (meaning all Americans) need to find ways to help our students achieve, especially after all the effort and money has been spent to revise the academic standards and teaching there. I think that ways to improve attendance, parental involvement, etc are needed.

 

Again, I know that there are a great deal of great public schools out there. I also happen to know that there are some significant issues with others. I think we need to look more at evaluating a school based on it's completeness for as many of it's students as possible, and less about anonymous test scores. In addition, I think we need to look at the methods of disciplinary action, and the limits that can be set and adhered to for those students who refuse to follow simple codes of conduct. I firmly believe that 10% of students ruin it for 90%, and that it's very unfortunate.

[TigerKat]

quoted this exact following statement:

 

"The public schools, for such lunacy, have no tradition and no pride and they have dumbed down the curriculum………….so why stop there? If you can’t compete in the classroom or the playing field, change the rules and you won’t have to compete. Just instill mediocrity. But at least the teachers and administrators won’t have to do anything except draw a paycheck paid by our tax money."

 

While I agree that we are only teaching to a test now it is still very difficult with all of the issues in JCPS to get those watered down curriulum points taught.

[TigerKat]

Like I said you just wouldn’t understand, the private schools in Kentucky are having success in both their academic endeavors and on the athletic fields, and a good number of Public School Supporters have given up tiring to compete so they have voted to eliminate their competition. That is a wonderful lesson for the children in those schools, when the going gets tough, just give up and change the rules, take the easy way out.

 

Have you taught in a Public School? or are you at St. X.?

[akw4572]

Just a couple of comments:

 

 

 

1st bolded statement: I guess this comment isn't a blanket statement about those who choose to attend private schools? I think you would find that most private school children and parents are not at all uppity and snotty. I think you'd find a great deal of them working extra jobs, and driving older cars, and doing with a few less "luxuries" to send their kids to their respective schools. I think you'd find some of the friendliest, most hospitable, respectful people you'd ever want to meet.

 

It absolutely was a blanket statement........to all the uppity snotty people that post garbage on here about public schools. Note my blanket statement had adjectives in front of it.......uppity and snotty, before I said "private" schools. I know not all private school attendees, educators, parents, athletes, etc. are ignorant in the same regards as RP.

[rockmom]

Just a couple of comments:

 

 

 

1st bolded statement: I guess this comment isn't a blanket statement about those who choose to attend private schools? I think you would find that most private school children and parents are not at all uppity and snotty. I think you'd find a great deal of them working extra jobs, and driving older cars, and doing with a few less "luxuries" to send their kids to their respective schools. I think you'd find some of the friendliest, most hospitable, respectful people you'd ever want to meet.

 

It absolutely was a blanket statement........to all the uppity snotty people that post garbage on here about public schools. Note my blanket statement had adjectives in front of it.......uppity and snotty, before I said "private" schools. I know not all private school attendees, educators, parents, athletes, etc. are ignorant in the same regards as RP.

 

If I misunderstood the intent of your post, I apologize. I took it as a personal insult, being neither, uppity or snotty, IMO.

 

Even in your reply to me, the first part seems to me to be saying that you are indeed painting all private school supporters as uppity and snotty. I guess I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed...of course, that should not be a news flash to anyone! :lol:

[RockPride]

I know not all private school attendees, educators, parents, athletes, etc. are ignorant in the same regards as RP.

 

Clarify please....are you calling me ignorant? Just wanted to be sure, as if I am indeed ignorant, I could not catch your reference.

[stickymitts]

Clarify please....are you calling me ignorant? Just wanted to be sure, as if I am indeed ignorant, I could not catch your reference.

 

Oh the irony... :lol: :lol:

[RockPride]

^

[Mayfieldsportsfan]

Oh the irony... :lol: :lol:

 

:lol: :lol:

[akw4572]

Clarify please....are you calling me ignorant? Just wanted to be sure, as if I am indeed ignorant, I could not catch your reference.

 

You certainly are ignorant of lots of facts if you believe what your "educator friend" said. I think enough's been said in reference to that.

[Frances Bavier]

... In addition, I think we need to look at the methods of disciplinary action, and the limits that can be set and adhered to for those students who refuse to follow simple codes of conduct. I firmly believe that 10% of students ruin it for 90%, and that it's very unfortunate.

 

Excellent point, Rockmom, and this is one point on which I am firmly in the conservative camp. In my opinion, a free education in this country should be a privilege, not a right. It should be a privilege afforded to all, but subject to forfeiture when repeated disciplinary actions are needed for a given individual. If public schools had the right to simply exclude kids that are chronically disruptive, the VAST majority of disciplinary problems would evaporate in about a one month period. At that point in time, real education of the remaining kids would begin in earnest, in all of our public schools.

 

This is one place where the law forces the overwhelming majority to suffer for the illusionary betterment of the few.

 

Frances

[akw4572]

Excellent point, Rockmom, and this is one point on which I am firmly in the conservative camp. In my opinion, a free education in this country should be a privilege, not a right. It should be a privilege afforded to all, but subject to forfeiture when repeated disciplinary actions are needed for a given individual. If public schools had the right to simply exclude kids that are chronically disruptive, the VAST majority of disciplinary problems would evaporate in about a one month period. At that point in time, real education of the remaining kids would begin in earnest, in all of our public schools.

 

This is one place where the law forces the overwhelming majority to suffer for the illusionary betterment of the few.

 

Frances

 

:thumb: :thumb: It certainly would make things more manageable.

[SilverShadow]

Excellent point, Rockmom, and this is one point on which I am firmly in the conservative camp. In my opinion, a free education in this country should be a privilege, not a right. It should be a privilege afforded to all, but subject to forfeiture when repeated disciplinary actions are needed for a given individual. If public schools had the right to simply exclude kids that are chronically disruptive, the VAST majority of disciplinary problems would evaporate in about a one month period. At that point in time, real education of the remaining kids would begin in earnest, in all of our public schools.

 

This is one place where the law forces the overwhelming majority to suffer for the illusionary betterment of the few.

 

Frances

 

Makes one wonder where the conservative leadership is in this state? Do you know in KY, it is found illegal to deny a driver's license if one is suspended or expelled or a problem issue in school? On one hand there is compulsory attendance yet no denial of one of the things that will get their attention. Anyone think driving a car, having a license is a "right". Well, in this state, it is.

 

If we are to accept the premise to deal with the most problematic, then the state AND federal government will need to roll back NCLB. Do not hold any school accountable for test scores or responsibility for a student that has a clear discipline problem via multiple suspensions and/or an expulsions. Allow the school to record the problem issue and at a third strike you are out level, allow for that student's removal from the school with no consequence to the school.

 

Having said all that and hearing the above suggestions, I have one question. What do you propose to do with the thousands of kids this will result in?

 

In NorKY, this number would be somewhere between 800 to 1,200 kids. One entire school! Please do not suggest to educate in a separate area. The state will not and the community will not agree to pay for it.

[rockmom]

Makes one wonder where the conservative leadership is in this state? Do you know in KY, it is found illegal to deny a driver's license if one is suspended or expelled or a problem issue in school? On one hand there is compulsory attendance yet no denial of one of the things that will get their attention. Anyone think driving a car, having a license is a "right". Well, in this state, it is.

 

If we are to accept the premise to deal with the most problematic, then the state AND federal government will need to roll back NCLB. Do not hold any school accountable for test scores or responsibility for a student that has a clear discipline problem via multiple suspensions and/or an expulsions. Allow the school to record the problem issue and at a third strike you are out level, allow for that student's removal from the school with no consequence to the school.

 

Having said all that and hearing the above suggestions, I have one question. What do you propose to do with the thousands of kids this will result in?

 

In NorKY, this number would be somewhere between 800 to 1,200 kids. One entire school! Please do not suggest to educate in a separate area. The state will not and the community will not agree to pay for it.

 

 

 

SS, I understand your point about "what do we do with those kids", but when does it come to the point of what's best for all the REST of the kids? At some point, this madness of assuming the school must police our children must stop, and parents MUST be held responsible for the care and actions of their children! I know it's not a popular opinion to hold. But let me be the first to say that I'm all about 2nd chances, until the multiplier on the 2nd chances exceeds single digits.

[Frances Bavier]

...I did not make the comment about the studies referenced on the NEA site without reading a few of them. I simply chose not to critique the way that the statistics were manipulated point by point.

Of course, you didn't mind "poisoning the well" for anyone that bothers to read your post. That was my point in responding to your comment about the data being "liberally massaged". It would be a rare trick, even for a magician with your skills to "poison the well" for himself.

 

 

Your assumption that I did not take time to look at the studies cited by the NEA before commenting on them is sad.

Your assertions about assumptions on my part is misdirected. I was not saying that you dismissed the data out of hand, rather that you were attempting to influence others to do so (what else could you possibly have meant by saying the data had been "liberally massaged")? I would submit that the sadness you feel has less to do with misunderstanding what you see as an assumption on my part, and more to do with having your own rhetoric pointed out for what it is. :thumb:

 

On a side note, when I was in school, being asked to cite your references didn't mean simply providing the name of the book you found your information in - you were expected to supply the page number and paragraph or table as well. In this instance, you cited the NEA home page via hyperlink. Not bad, if everyone reading this thread is a mindreader, but since that site is, itself, hyperlinked to almost the entire worldwide web, your reference is of little use, unless the reader has unlimited time to search the entire site (and all of its hyperlinks) in question. On second thought, I may be selling you short. Intentional obfuscation may well be the best defense of your position.

 

 

 

Can you not set aside your prejudice against conservatives long enough to engage in a civil debate? At least make the effort. You can only accuse me of "poisoning the well" while calling me a liar so many times before you start looking silly. You seem to be intelligent enough to debate on a little higher level than that.

Not a problem. I'm more than willing to stop pointing out the logical fallacies in your defense of your stance, if you'll stop committing them. I have yet to call you a liar, but if your conscience is bothering you, I can understand.

 

As for your last sentence, it is indeed a gift, to be able to compliment another person while at the same time questioning their mental capacity. In my other posts on this thread, I have given you credit for being an intelligent person - and I based that on how you comport yourself. In spite of your backhanded compliment, I'll continue to extend that courtesy to you. If you wish to hint that you are somehow my intellectual superior, feel free to do so. At my age, I've encountered large egos on prior occasions. I'm sure that as I continue to age, I will see them again.

 

Thanks,

Frances