The Pope

[rockmom]

For those of you who say why pray to saints if you have direct access through Jesus, here's a question:

 

 

Why would you ask, then, for the prayers of your fellow Christians here on earth? Why do we pray for each other's souls? For solutions to each others problems? For a swift return to health?

[Trojans]

The church isn't built upon a man who denied Jesus three times or who was called out by Paul for hypocropsy (sp) in the book of Acts. It is built on the fact that Jesus is the Christ!

Edited July 23, 2008 by Trojans
spelling

[Trojans]

2 Thessalonians 2

The Man of Lawlessness

1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness

[spindoc]

For those of you who say why pray to saints if you have direct access through Jesus, here's a question:

 

 

Why would you ask, then, for the prayers of your fellow Christians here on earth? Why do we pray for each other's souls? For solutions to each others problems? For a swift return to health?

Because they have access to the throne through Christ just like we do. Who needs Peter? I have LRCW!:thumb:

[Trojans]

Can the Pope be married?

[Birdsfan]

Can the Pope be married?

No. In the early church he could; but that changed many hundreds of years ago. RM could give you the exact date...and maybe even the time and a brief weather report.

[rockmom]

Because they have access to the throne through Christ just like we do. Who needs Peter? I have LRCW!:thumb:

 

 

That makes no sense. If you feel that the living have the access to Christ, then does it not stand to reason that the dead in heaven do as well? I'm not understanding why one and not the other. What you've stated doesn't explain.

[rockmom]

The church isn't built upon a man who denied Jesus three times or who was called out by Paul for hypocropsy (sp) in the book of Acts. It is built on the fact that Jesus is the Christ!

 

 

When he first saw Simon, "Jesus looked at him, and said, ‘So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas (which means Peter)’" (John 1:42). The word Cephas is merely the transliteration of the Aramaic Kepha into Greek. Later, after Peter and the other disciples had been with Christ for some time, they went to Caesarea Philippi, where Peter made his profession of faith: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt. 16:16). Jesus told him that this truth was specially revealed to him, and then he solemnly reiterated: "And I tell you, you are Peter" (Matt. 16:18). To this was added the promise that the Church would be founded, in some way, on Peter (Matt. 16:18).

 

Then two important things were told the apostle. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16:19). Here Peter was singled out for the authority that provides for the forgiveness of sins and the making of disciplinary rules. Later the apostles as a whole would be given similar power [Matt.18:18], but here Peter received it in a special sense.

 

Peter alone was promised something else also: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 16:19). In ancient times, keys were the hallmark of authority. A walled city might have one great gate; and that gate had one great lock, worked by one great key. To be given the key to the city—an honor that exists even today, though its import is lost—meant to be given free access to and authority over the city. The city to which Peter was given the keys was the heavenly city itself. This symbolism for authority is used elsewhere in the Bible (Is. 22:22, Rev. 1:18).

 

Finally, after the resurrection, Jesus appeared to his disciples and asked Peter three times, "Do you love me?" (John 21:15-17). In repentance for his threefold denial, Peter gave a threefold affirmation of love. Then Christ, the Good Shepherd (John 10:11, 14), gave Peter the authority he earlier had promised: "Feed my sheep" (John 21:17). This specifically included the other apostles, since Jesus asked Peter, "Do you love me more than these?" (John 21:15), the word "these" referring to the other apostles who were present (John 21:2). Thus was completed the prediction made just before Jesus and his followers went for the last time to the Mount of Olives.

 

Immediately before his denials were predicted, Peter was told, "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again [after the denials], strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:31-32). It was Peter who Christ prayed would have faith that would not fail and that would be a guide for the others; and his prayer, being perfectly efficacious, was sure to be fulfilled.

[5wide]

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

 

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"

 

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders (the leaders of the people of God in heaven) fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

 

Angels do the same thing: "An angel came and stood at the altar in heaven with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).

 

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

 

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

 

Nowhere in those verses do I read that we're directed to ask those in heaven to pray for us.

[rockmom]

Nowhere in those verses do I read that we're directed to ask those in heaven to pray for us.

 

 

Where are we directed to pray for each ohter here among the living?

[5wide]

For those of you who say why pray to saints if you have direct access through Jesus, here's a question:

 

 

Why would you ask, then, for the prayers of your fellow Christians here on earth? Why do we pray for each other's souls? For solutions to each others problems? For a swift return to health?

 

Matthew 18:19,20 Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in My name, I am there in the midst of them.

[5wide]

Where are we directed to pray for each ohter here among the living?

 

You'll have to give me some time on this one...

 

In any case, I'm not disputing the act of praying to saints who have departed their earthly life. As I said, I have no problem with your decision to do so. I merely told you why I choose not to do so.

 

Obviously, the passage you cited...1 Timothy 2:1-4 would be an example of us being commanded to pray for others. At least, I think "all men" would qualify it as such.

[PepRock01]

I'm not trying to be abrasive, only asking questions. I can't understand why anyone needs someone to pray for them to get access to God. We have access to the throne through Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. When the veil was rent in twain, we don't need someone other than Christ to intercede for us. When Christ instructed us how to pray, he never mentioned Peter, never mentioned Mary or anyone else for that matter. As a matter of fact Peter was one he commanded to pray that way.

 

 

Have you never asked anyone else to pray for you or for someone in need? Asking for the prayers of Mary or the saints is no different.

[Getslow]

Thomas Merton once wrote that there was no more foolish exercise he engaged in as a young man than debating about religion.

 

But if you want to read something interesting in the hope of learning more about the faith of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church... here:

 

Was Peter the First Pope?

 

I think the style is bit heavy-handed and his tone somewhat vitriolic, but it's a good introduction to the topic.

[HHSDad]

For those of you who say why pray to saints if you have direct access through Jesus, here's a question:

 

 

Why would you ask, then, for the prayers of your fellow Christians here on earth? Why do we pray for each other's souls? For solutions to each others problems? For a swift return to health?

Apples and Oranges

The church isn't built upon a man who denied Jesus three times or who was called out by Paul for hypocropsy (sp) in the book of Acts. It is built on the fact that Jesus is the Christ!

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven’" (Matt. 16:18-19).

Because they have access to the throne through Christ just like we do. Who needs Peter? I have LRCW!:thumb:

We also have access to the Holy Spirit who "intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express."